Performing Alignments
- Thread starter Ron Earp
- Start date
Ross Nicol
GT40s Supporter
This is really developing into a good thread and w'eve even inspired Malcolm to set his own toe.Thanks for the correction Dfreeman95, when I first read your post I thought you were referring to the book.I've had to eat humble pie a few times myself usually after forgetting to proof read my posts.
Andrew E how about a step by step guide on using that fantastic looking Dunlop setup.
My hat goes off to Ron who knows how to ask a question to achieve this sort of response.You can bet he already new what to do.
Ross
Andrew E how about a step by step guide on using that fantastic looking Dunlop setup.
My hat goes off to Ron who knows how to ask a question to achieve this sort of response.You can bet he already new what to do.
Ross
Hi Ross,
Firstly congrates on the great effort last weekend I must confess I was checking natsoft Saturday and Sunday nights to see how you were going, obviuosly 1.18s is getting right at the pointed end of lap times.
The Dunlop optical alginment gauge is very simple to use, which fits my skill levels. My problem is with little helpers it would be very difficult to set up strings lines without someone tripping or knocking the stands at each end at the critical time, always happens.
All measurements need to be done on a flat level surface.
Looking at the photos previously posted the two contact bars are set to the centre height of the wheels being measured, then placed just touching the outside of the rims on each side. You then can sight through the periscope and adjust a pointer until a hair line sited is centered. The Dunlop gauge measures the angle between the pairs of wheels in degress and minutes and circular calculator is located next to the periscope which converts the angle obtained to millimetres or factions of an inch (linear toe in or toe out). Once the gauge has been set for the diameter of the wheels the toe in check only takes a couple of minutes.
The camber gauge is virtualy a purpose designed spirit level, with the horizontal and vertical levels having a simple calibrated adjustment which reads the degrees of camber by holding against the wheel. The set also includes a castor and king pin gauges but I haven't as yet used these. The other reason I chose the system was that it easy to use with centre lock wheels.
Interestingly the gauges are made by Garage Equipment Maintenance Co, in Northhampton, with Dunlop being the sole agents. I first saw the the unit in a photo in Fred Phuns book "How to Make Your Car handle" some years ago and always thought thats the gear to have.
Recently whislt at Stuckeys (Aus Dunlop race tyre agents) I asked what they sell or recommend to the race teams for mobile alignments thats what they showed me the rest is history.
Andrew E
Firstly congrates on the great effort last weekend I must confess I was checking natsoft Saturday and Sunday nights to see how you were going, obviuosly 1.18s is getting right at the pointed end of lap times.
The Dunlop optical alginment gauge is very simple to use, which fits my skill levels. My problem is with little helpers it would be very difficult to set up strings lines without someone tripping or knocking the stands at each end at the critical time, always happens.
All measurements need to be done on a flat level surface.
Looking at the photos previously posted the two contact bars are set to the centre height of the wheels being measured, then placed just touching the outside of the rims on each side. You then can sight through the periscope and adjust a pointer until a hair line sited is centered. The Dunlop gauge measures the angle between the pairs of wheels in degress and minutes and circular calculator is located next to the periscope which converts the angle obtained to millimetres or factions of an inch (linear toe in or toe out). Once the gauge has been set for the diameter of the wheels the toe in check only takes a couple of minutes.
The camber gauge is virtualy a purpose designed spirit level, with the horizontal and vertical levels having a simple calibrated adjustment which reads the degrees of camber by holding against the wheel. The set also includes a castor and king pin gauges but I haven't as yet used these. The other reason I chose the system was that it easy to use with centre lock wheels.
Interestingly the gauges are made by Garage Equipment Maintenance Co, in Northhampton, with Dunlop being the sole agents. I first saw the the unit in a photo in Fred Phuns book "How to Make Your Car handle" some years ago and always thought thats the gear to have.
Recently whislt at Stuckeys (Aus Dunlop race tyre agents) I asked what they sell or recommend to the race teams for mobile alignments thats what they showed me the rest is history.
Andrew E
Ross Nicol
GT40s Supporter
Thanks Andrew, was the set expensive? By the way what is the clubman car on the trailer? Elfin maybe.
Ross
Ross
Ross,
$2100 I think, toe unit $1200 \camber caster set $900. Happy to get together some time with the gear so you can use and try before you jump in.
Clubman is an ICV Toyota 4age 20V,wolf 3D, 520 Kg with me on board a tad more than that!
You'd be familar with 4age engines!
Andrew
$2100 I think, toe unit $1200 \camber caster set $900. Happy to get together some time with the gear so you can use and try before you jump in.
Clubman is an ICV Toyota 4age 20V,wolf 3D, 520 Kg with me on board a tad more than that!
You'd be familar with 4age engines!
Andrew
Russ,
Yes, you are absolutely correct about it not being necessary that the left and right string be the same distance but what I am trying establish is a way of getting the strings so that they are parallel to the side of the car when there is no reference on the car itself that I can trust to determine what is parallel (or is there? let me know if there is).
The wheels themselves can't be trusted because the front and rear track is different and getting an accurate offset measurement (so that I can account for it when measuring to the string) is probably just as difficult for me.
The body can't be trusted because, well, it just ain't parallel relative to the direction of travel and we don't know how far out it is.
But having said all that, once I have done this the first time, then I do have a useful offset figure that I can use next time, assuming I can remember where I took my references the last time :shrug:
Incidentally, the reason that I measure the distance between the stands is so that I will end up with a parallelogram/rectangle. The measurement to the wheels is to then ensure that this rectangle/parallelogram is aligned parallel to the direction of travel of the car.
PS. I agree that this is not very useful on competition day. Its only useful if you want to be pedantic.
Yes, you are absolutely correct about it not being necessary that the left and right string be the same distance but what I am trying establish is a way of getting the strings so that they are parallel to the side of the car when there is no reference on the car itself that I can trust to determine what is parallel (or is there? let me know if there is).
The wheels themselves can't be trusted because the front and rear track is different and getting an accurate offset measurement (so that I can account for it when measuring to the string) is probably just as difficult for me.
The body can't be trusted because, well, it just ain't parallel relative to the direction of travel and we don't know how far out it is.
But having said all that, once I have done this the first time, then I do have a useful offset figure that I can use next time, assuming I can remember where I took my references the last time :shrug:
Incidentally, the reason that I measure the distance between the stands is so that I will end up with a parallelogram/rectangle. The measurement to the wheels is to then ensure that this rectangle/parallelogram is aligned parallel to the direction of travel of the car.
PS. I agree that this is not very useful on competition day. Its only useful if you want to be pedantic.
Chris, you're up early! Got cows to milk or something?
Anyway, to answer your question, where the body sits is irrelevant. All we are interested in is the chassis. Bear in mind Ron's initial question.
"I need to acquire some basic alignment skills. I have successfully measured toe and adjusted it at the track using borrowed toe plates, and made some eyeball camber changes as well. Too much time, and money, is spent dragging race cars around to alignment shops. I need to be able to check alignment, adjust after offs, and generally be able to make changes when I wish."
He is not talking about initial setup which is considerably more involved and time consuming and is probably easiest done at an alignment shop. For making adjustments those settings are already there and shouldn't change for all practical purposes. After damage at the track, there is usually not time to do a full setup, it is more a case of getting the wheels pointing in approximately the right direction as quickly as possible.
A full initial setup is perfectly capable of being done by stringline and level, it's just that some measurements can be a little difficult to get. Bodywork in the way etc. For initial setup first you need to set your rideheight, then set the front track so that each pair of wheels is equidistant from the inboard pickup points on the chassis. I would use the upper point since the links are shorter. (If the chassis is is not 100%, and very few are it is better to put any differences into the longer lower arms) Then do the same for the rear. Then set the wheelbase so that it is the same for each side.
Then you have to check and adjust your diagonal measurements from an easily defined point on the uprights, then recheck your first measurements for wheelbase and track and adjust if necessary. When you are sure the car (wheels) is square then you go on to caster, camber and toe, as first posted. Not forgetting to check and minimize bumpsteer for initial setup.
Hope that brief explanation is of some help.
Then you go onto cornerweighting.......Ron posted a good link for this procedure in one of his posts last year.
Cheers,
Anyway, to answer your question, where the body sits is irrelevant. All we are interested in is the chassis. Bear in mind Ron's initial question.
"I need to acquire some basic alignment skills. I have successfully measured toe and adjusted it at the track using borrowed toe plates, and made some eyeball camber changes as well. Too much time, and money, is spent dragging race cars around to alignment shops. I need to be able to check alignment, adjust after offs, and generally be able to make changes when I wish."
He is not talking about initial setup which is considerably more involved and time consuming and is probably easiest done at an alignment shop. For making adjustments those settings are already there and shouldn't change for all practical purposes. After damage at the track, there is usually not time to do a full setup, it is more a case of getting the wheels pointing in approximately the right direction as quickly as possible.
A full initial setup is perfectly capable of being done by stringline and level, it's just that some measurements can be a little difficult to get. Bodywork in the way etc. For initial setup first you need to set your rideheight, then set the front track so that each pair of wheels is equidistant from the inboard pickup points on the chassis. I would use the upper point since the links are shorter. (If the chassis is is not 100%, and very few are it is better to put any differences into the longer lower arms) Then do the same for the rear. Then set the wheelbase so that it is the same for each side.
Then you have to check and adjust your diagonal measurements from an easily defined point on the uprights, then recheck your first measurements for wheelbase and track and adjust if necessary. When you are sure the car (wheels) is square then you go on to caster, camber and toe, as first posted. Not forgetting to check and minimize bumpsteer for initial setup.
Hope that brief explanation is of some help.
Then you go onto cornerweighting.......Ron posted a good link for this procedure in one of his posts last year.
Cheers,
Last edited:
Today I did a string computer toe in adjustment, with a second set of hands provided by Paul.
Initially I measure the track at the rear of teh car measuring from the outer points of the spindles. This allowed me to run a string 3 inches from the spindles at the rear and then to measure the string width across the front of the car to ensure that the strings and centre line of the car were parrallel. Having done this once, I was able to measure the string to front spindle gap. Now the next time I need to set the strings all I will do is put a string 3 inches off the rear spindles and 81mm off the front spindles (yeah I know its mixing imperial and metric but the the numbers are whole numbers and I am bilingual with measurements!).
With this now very easy set up procedure (5 minutes) I was able to set my toe in very easily.
Bits and peices I used were 4 axles stands, 2 turn plates, one builders brick laying string long enough to do both sides of the car, 4 bricks to tension the string and 2 * 7 ft long shelving brackets to sit on the axle stands, tape measure.
The turn plates were important as without them when I adjusted the steering arm lenght the steering wheel moved and subsequent measurements were all unreliable. With them in place the steering wheel stayed in the correct position ie dead ahead.
Initially I measure the track at the rear of teh car measuring from the outer points of the spindles. This allowed me to run a string 3 inches from the spindles at the rear and then to measure the string width across the front of the car to ensure that the strings and centre line of the car were parrallel. Having done this once, I was able to measure the string to front spindle gap. Now the next time I need to set the strings all I will do is put a string 3 inches off the rear spindles and 81mm off the front spindles (yeah I know its mixing imperial and metric but the the numbers are whole numbers and I am bilingual with measurements!).
With this now very easy set up procedure (5 minutes) I was able to set my toe in very easily.
Bits and peices I used were 4 axles stands, 2 turn plates, one builders brick laying string long enough to do both sides of the car, 4 bricks to tension the string and 2 * 7 ft long shelving brackets to sit on the axle stands, tape measure.
The turn plates were important as without them when I adjusted the steering arm lenght the steering wheel moved and subsequent measurements were all unreliable. With them in place the steering wheel stayed in the correct position ie dead ahead.
Ron Earp
Admin
Hey Malcolm,
I did something similar to you yesterday with camber. Using a flat piece of ground, some reference points on the floor evenly spaced, and a bubble level with some simple trig calculations I was able to rough mine out. Got about -2.25 R and only about -2.1 left - the left side is maxed out.
But I don't have turn plates and toe is hard, or at least tedious, to set without them.
R
I did something similar to you yesterday with camber. Using a flat piece of ground, some reference points on the floor evenly spaced, and a bubble level with some simple trig calculations I was able to rough mine out. Got about -2.25 R and only about -2.1 left - the left side is maxed out.
But I don't have turn plates and toe is hard, or at least tedious, to set without them.
R
Grease Sandwich Ron...
Go to the local Home Depot and pickup 4 $1 each floor tiles.
Smear axle grease on two of them
Put the two clean ones on top of the two greased ones
Jack up the front end and place the tiles under the tires
You will be totally amazed at how well it works.. Plus - unless you get too carried away with the grease you can re-use these sandwiches many times over.
A little more expensive route would be to substitute steel plates for the vinyl floor tiles...
Chris Kouba
Supporter
Sorry for the thread drift gents but damn I love this forum...
From homemade alu seats, foam thrones and now grease sandwiches. Great ideas!
Keep'em coming!
From homemade alu seats, foam thrones and now grease sandwiches. Great ideas!
Keep'em coming!
Ron Earp
Admin
This is exactly, precisely, what I wanted to learn from such a thread. Big Foot, you are the man one this one. What I wanted was a basic setup that could be done about anywhere. I can handle any of the trig to figure out angles here and there, but the toe plate suggestion you've made will make toe easily attainable. Thanks.
Ron
chalk the tires and toe stick. 2 ft long carpenter level with small bolts to touch the rim for camber.
OR
Speedway Motors has a good selection of affordable trackside alignment tools
OR
Speedway Motors has a good selection of affordable trackside alignment tools
