Need cooling help please

[Rob Hurley]

The notch at the bottom of the timing cover appears to be a weep hole, so you can tell if the back of the pump is leaking. I don't think it should be filled with JB or sealant. I just seal around the water jackets.

There are two additional bolts underneath going through the oil pan and into the timing cover. You can clearly see them if you refer to the link in Michaels post #117. Keep in mind, taking the timing cover off may snow ball into an oil pan gasket. Not a bad idea if you have access. FelPro makes a really nice one piece gasket.

Know that Ford made a few different timing covers. They can easily get mixed up. Ask me how I know. Also, I have found that the cheap Chinese timing covers are junk. The last one I ordered the holes were off so far that I could not thread them into the holes on the block. I think Michael pointed you to a good one. Appears to be OEM with Ford stamping.

My 2 cents worth...

 

[Mike Christian]

Today I ordered the Ford one from Summit...it is due here tomorrow. No hope it is packaged well.

I have seen the weep hole you are referring to. I have read differing opinions. The old one wasn't filled and I would probably lean that way.

I am prepared to dive deeper if needed!

Thanks for you .02!

 

[Mike Christian]

So the new Ford Performance item came in from Summit Racing today. It was packaged nicely and came with all gaskets, dipstick hole plug, nice stickers, and a crank seal! The gasket surface is definitely machined better. What I find interesting is that the sensor mount is machined off. I guess it is a "non issue" for me. Looking forward to trying to put this on in a couple of weeks! Thanks for the tip.

 

[Mike Christian]

 

[Michael]

It looks good, interesting that the sensor boss is machined off.

 

[Mike Christian]

Okay Braintrust, I am back at it and have a few Q's. Today I was able to get the old timing cover off which was a chore. There was alot of sealant goop on the bottom edge and it took awhile to let go. As it did, the pan gasket tore across near the driver's side first bolt hole (at the end of the pan gasket internal metal strip). The half moon is intact:

I was able to clean off the cover's mating sufaces pretty good...not sure if there is a best method to get it any cleaner. It feels very smooth to the touch:

 

[Mike Christian]

So, to get this far I needed to remove the fuel pump and some sections of coolant hose. As I was cleaning off the fuel that spilled out of the pump onto a cart shelf, I noticed a small copper washer on the cart. Is this from the pump or from another project of mine? I do not see a location that would have had it. You can see it here on the right:

 

[Mike Christian]

I do have a new FelPro blue oil pan gasket that I can cut to replace the half moon. I know advise was to cut the oil pan gasket flush with the block, but it has internal metal. I can't just cut it with a blade. Should I focus on just surgically replacing the half moon near the first oil pan bolt holes (where it tore)?

Also, I see that a 3M weatherstrip adhesive is recommended for the oil pan gasket and for the half moon. I have these in hand...would one of these work as good?

I appreciate any help you can give this first timer. I am seriously hoping that the oil pan gasket does not need to be changed at this point as there are at least two bolts on each side near the mounts that look almost impossible to reach. I look forward to, hopefully, this being the end of the dismantle phase and a move to the reassemble phase! Fingers are crossed.

 

[David mono]

So, to get this far I needed to remove the fuel pump and some sections of coolant hose. As I was cleaning off the fuel that spilled out of the pump onto a cart shelf, I noticed a small copper washer on the cart. Is this from the pump or from another project of mine? I do not see a location that would have had it. You can see it here on the right:

View attachment 138644

Mike, the copper washer looks like its from the oil pan gasket. In the second photo down posted today.

 

[Rob Hurley]

We if were me, I would just put the car up on blocks so you can get access underneath, buy a nice set of 1/4 swivel sockets with long extensions and pull the pan. There may be a bunch of gasket material in there now and you don't want to have an oil leak after all this work requiring you to replace the oil pan gasket anyway. I know, not what you want to hear. Sometimes is best just to bite the bullet and go all in once.

 

[Mike Christian]

David, I am not sure that the oil pan gasket has washers between surfaces, but I will check. Thanks!

Rob, I do not think any swivels will get me there...don't know until I try though. Visually, I can barely see a few of them, and the thought of trying to reinstall those bolts tells me this might be a case where the engine is removed first.

BTW I have drained the oil and had rags in the openings while scraping the gasket. I am sure some bits might have entered the pan, but I am pretty sure that I caught most. I appreciate feedback.

 

[Brian]

I hate to make work for you, but I think you have zero chance of getting it sealed up without removing the pan to install the timing cover first, then the pan with a new gasket.

When you try to shove the timing cover into the saddle with the dowels in you way, then slide the cover back, you will dislodge the gasket ans open the gap where it's torn. And you stand a real good likelyhood of messing up or driving the dowels into the block and not having the cover concentric to the crank and making the front seal leak.

Some better mechanics than me may have successfully pulled this off before, but doing this out of order (cover fist then pan) is a recepit for disaster.

 

[David Garton]

That pan gasket is a late model style rubber one piece. They are easy to do. You drop the pan down and you don't even have to remove it on a cross member style in vehicle repair you just clean the surface of the block and stretch the new gasket around the outside of the pan and use the yellow weather strip glue to set the half moons at each end of the front and rear of the block with the timing cover already installed. I've done plenty of vans in vehicle repairs that way. The new style gasket is best..

 

[Mike Christian]

Gents, I looked at it with a fresh set of eyes from underneath, and with disconnection of the oil lines, I actually think I can remove the pan. Guess what I will be doing Sunday? I am not looking forward to a deeper dive, but it needs to be done right.

I really appreciate the advise here!

 

[Mike Christian]

So much for my fresh set of eyes...what a clusterfu**. About 45 minutes to get those four oil pan screws from behind the motor mounts out. Who knows how long it might take to get them back in. Then removing all the other oil pan screws required an oil line to be removed. That then did release the oil pa, sort of. It would swivel from the fron about 3/4" ad then stop. The rear of the pan is tucked into a plate that serves as a transmission block off plate and a starter mount plate. So I remove the starter and block off plate, but the oil pan won't release. I also had to take out the diptick assembly by the way. That necessitated removing it from a spark plug holder and a bracket to the valve cover. Finally I carefull pry the oil pan near the trans end and the pan releases, but can't be removed. The motor mounts have bottom bolts in the way. Getting to them necessitates removal of the oil filter and another oil hose on the one side. I also d to find the right wrench to tuck in behind the mount plate. I fanally worked those singles bolts out of each side. One of the nuts fell, bouncing off of the oil pan and into the 5 gallon oil catch pan that is about half full, to be retrieved at some later date. So now the oil pan is released, sort of. The motor mount plates are angled inward at the bottom and the lower ends of narrower, by about 1/6" each side, than the oil pan flanges. I try to rotate the oil pan but I feel internal interference. I am able to work one side off/below the one motor mount, bu tthe oil pan will not come down. I am at a loss.

Two things I discovered...this engine in this car is a fairly major challenge to do this in situ. The other thing I learned is that a few changes might make this a bit easier in the future. The changs mainly have to do with the motor mount plates.

No I find myself in a place where I need more help. I need to remove the mountor mount plates with the engine in the car if possible. I have a simple engine hoist, and can pull the engine up a bit...if that if okay to do as is. I just need to release the pressure off the mounts to unbolt them and slide the out I think. Is this doable?

Also, it seems that the oil pan need to drop vertically to be fully removed...any idea how far to clear any internal interference?

I will be posting pics of my issues shortly!

 

[Bill Kearley]

The standard pump and pan will allow you to lower the pan straight down.

 

[Mike Christian]

Here is a shot of the two bolts behind the motor mount that were difficult to get to:

This shows the blockoffplate that interferes with the back of the oil pan:

This shot shows the motor mount bolt and plate that interferes with lowering the oil pan straight down:

The motor mount plate is an adapter of sorts which allows the mount to the attached to it and then ties it into the chassis. If I can get one of the motor mounts out I might be able to remove the pan. The pan is resting on these motor mount adapter plates right now and can not be removed. If the plates were trimmed about 1/16-1/8" this probably wouldn't be an issue.

So, if I can lift the motor enough to get the motor mount(s) out, then there should be no more intereference. I think. It looks like one main horizontal bolt through the chassis and two or three bolts into the block. If the mounts need to come out the top, then I am screwed. I need them to come out the bottom somehow or slide up and away from the oil pan. Is anyone familiar with this motor mount setup?

 

[Mike Christian]

The standard pump and pan will allow you to lower the pan straight down.

Thanks Bill! Therein lies the current challenge. The motor mounts are in the way by about 1/8" on each side.

 

[David mono]

Looks to me that original FAV motor mounts are the way to go.

 

[Mike Christian]

Can you explain or share a photo?