Mike,
You did tell me Martin's driving style meant he used to go around roundabouts at 45 degrees in his 40, so I expect that did not help things
You did tell me Martin's driving style meant he used to go around roundabouts at 45 degrees in his 40, so I expect that did not help things
I did the same thing - had them so I could use either one, or both, but didn't balance them. It gave me a "reserve" when driving on road trips, and at the track I'd run both at once. I had to run all fuel lines in the back through that aeroquip orange insulation.
Bill Kearley
Supporter
AN to 3/8 fuel line. I used a # 6 AN swivel to 3/8 rubber push on barbed adapter. The right hose and fitting parts from Parker are good to 300 psi.
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Ed McClements
Supporter
Thanks everyone for the input. I have to admit that before I ordered these parts I read every post on here about fuel pumps, fuelling requirements and people's experiences with Facet / Carter / Holley / Walbro etc .
Here are the calculations (I'm planning for 330-350hp):-
For example, if you have an engine that makes 350 horsepower, your equation will look like this:
(350HP x .5 lbs) / 6 lbs =
175 lbs/hr of fuel / 6 lbs = 29 GPH
In our example, you’d need a fuel pump that delivers 29 GPH of fuel.
and from Summit racing:-
And these are fuel requirements for running WOT...on the narrow, bumpy, gravel-strewn lanes of north Lancashire I'll be luck to hold full throttle for more than 5 seconds!
I did read about some failures caused by lean conditions, but it seemed that on investigation other factors were responsible, eg. running one of these as a pre-filter:-
which had then clogged and collapsed, causing the pump to fail. And for every tale of woe, there seems to be another tale of someone using a pair of Facets for 20 years without an issue.
So....I'll continue to ponder. Remember, I'm building a modestly-powered road car, not a 500hp track weapon. Maybe I'll hook up one of the pumps / filter kings to a 12v power supply and a jerry can, and measure what it'll really deliver. And I entirely appreciate that fuel pumps are cheaper than engines!
Here are the calculations (I'm planning for 330-350hp):-
For example, if you have an engine that makes 350 horsepower, your equation will look like this:
(350HP x .5 lbs) / 6 lbs =
175 lbs/hr of fuel / 6 lbs = 29 GPH
In our example, you’d need a fuel pump that delivers 29 GPH of fuel.
and from Summit racing:-
And these are fuel requirements for running WOT...on the narrow, bumpy, gravel-strewn lanes of north Lancashire I'll be luck to hold full throttle for more than 5 seconds!
I did read about some failures caused by lean conditions, but it seemed that on investigation other factors were responsible, eg. running one of these as a pre-filter:-
which had then clogged and collapsed, causing the pump to fail. And for every tale of woe, there seems to be another tale of someone using a pair of Facets for 20 years without an issue.
So....I'll continue to ponder. Remember, I'm building a modestly-powered road car, not a 500hp track weapon. Maybe I'll hook up one of the pumps / filter kings to a 12v power supply and a jerry can, and measure what it'll really deliver. And I entirely appreciate that fuel pumps are cheaper than engines!
The Malpassi 85mm V8 regulator is rated up to 350 bhp.
Above that there's an alternative metal element available.
Major downside is the 8 micron vs 55 micron filtration capability.
It would be great of you to run the flow test though Eddy as my plan is also to use twin Red Top pumps with paired 85mm regulators.
It would save me having to do the same thing
www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk
Above that there's an alternative metal element available.
Major downside is the 8 micron vs 55 micron filtration capability.
It would be great of you to run the flow test though Eddy as my plan is also to use twin Red Top pumps with paired 85mm regulators.
It would save me having to do the same thing
Metal Element For Large Filter King Regulators from Merlin Motorsport
Metal
Ed McClements
Supporter
The Malpassi 85mm V8 regulator is rated up to 350 bhp.
Above that there's an alternative metal element available.
Major downside is the 8 micron vs 55 micron filtration capability.
It would be great of you to run the flow test though Eddy as my plan is also to use twin Red Top pumps with paired 85mm regulators.
It would save me having to do the same thing
Metal Element For Large Filter King Regulators from Merlin Motorsport
Metal
Hi Mark
I'm beginning to have second thoughts...I think I was given a false sense of security re: Facet pumps by these images:-
which show pairs of Facet pumps.
I've got to be honest here - I wouldn't be fully comfortable running a single Facet pump on it's own.
There's always going to be that opportunity when you want to hoof it and have no time to upgrade to the second pump.
I was going to flow test a Facet Red Top anyway to find out if I would end up in the marginal zone (347ci engine with AFR heads planned for my build) and then decide accordingly.
The Red Tops are rated to about 240 BHP new and we all know that it will lose efficiency a bit as it's used. Added to that, the filter will strangle things further.
The problem now becomes "how much do you want to spend?".
I've been investigating some of the offerings of Jegs and they have a range of relatively inexpensive items that support a lot of flow.
I am being drawn towards the Holley Red items as it would seem to be man enough for the job.
A pair of those for "belt and braces" is looking very viable.
www.jegs.com
I have heard (no pun intended) that the Holley pumps can be quite noisy but a set of megaphone exhausts will easily deal with that
There's always going to be that opportunity when you want to hoof it and have no time to upgrade to the second pump.
I was going to flow test a Facet Red Top anyway to find out if I would end up in the marginal zone (347ci engine with AFR heads planned for my build) and then decide accordingly.
The Red Tops are rated to about 240 BHP new and we all know that it will lose efficiency a bit as it's used. Added to that, the filter will strangle things further.
The problem now becomes "how much do you want to spend?".
I've been investigating some of the offerings of Jegs and they have a range of relatively inexpensive items that support a lot of flow.
I am being drawn towards the Holley Red items as it would seem to be man enough for the job.
A pair of those for "belt and braces" is looking very viable.
Holley 12-801-1: 12-801-1 Red Electric Fuel Pump for Carbureted Engines [7 psi] - JEGS
Get the Best Performance with Holley 12-801-1 Red Electric Fuel Pump for Carbureted Engines [7 psi] 12-801-1 parts at JEGS. Shop Now at the Guaranteed Lowest Price!
www.jegs.com
Shaun
Supporter
I used a pair of these in mine they feed a swirl pot then HP to the fuel rail, I spent ages looking at fuel pumps, these lift which is good as they are sited (as they seem to be in most GT40's) above the tank
www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk
My plumbing got a bit busy!!!
Carter Universal Fuel Pump / Lift Pump
This is a universal rotary vane electric fuel pumps which can operate using any fuel
www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk
My plumbing got a bit busy!!!
Ed McClements
Supporter
@Shaun Sizen @Shed Racing
Thanks guys. Holley Reds or Carters it is, then. Roadcraft have the Carters listed under (I think) a Federal Mogul part number:-
roadcraftuk.co.uk
Thanks guys. Holley Reds or Carters it is, then. Roadcraft have the Carters listed under (I think) a Federal Mogul part number:-
Electric Fuel Pump 100GPH
roadcraftuk.co.uk
Eddy , a couple of points. Most people have run facets for years with no problems. I run a single facet blue top (480534) rated at 45GPH and it will keep my 440HP motor singing a full chat for longer than I would like to mention because I was doing stupid speeds at the time (Enstone runway). At no point will I ever come close to holding the throttle open for that long on the public roads, from a rolling start I can only manage a few seconds of full throttle on a dual carriageway before im well into 100 mph + speeds so I don't think its a problem you will ever face. Secondly Holley Reds are useless unless gravity fed, so next to useless in a 40. Very few pumps can lift that kind of height.
Crack on and use them , if your going racing at lemans then have another look at it. I suspect you won't be.
Crack on and use them , if your going racing at lemans then have another look at it. I suspect you won't be.
Do a lot more homework before deciding, there are lot more considerations to establish that are not mentioned above !
How about mentioning the considerations Frank, that would be much more useful I’m sure...
Ed McClements
Supporter
Oh...believe me, Frank - this is not a snap decision
and your response is extremely tantalising....tell me more....I think I may have read every "which fuel pump" post on this Forum, pored over my library (some titles here):-
And scoured the paddock at last year's Oulton Park Gold Cup looking at fuel systems. Every elbow and connector has been checked to make sure there are no restrictions, I am using 10mmID hose throughout, I am only asking the pumps to lift less than half their specified height etc etc.
But, if there's something I've missed, I am all ears!
I can only ad, I had a lot of failures not coping with the fuel demand needed after a long journey in 3 of my cars. All Facet red top & blue top (same pump differend filter) all pushing through a 85MM Filterking
All situated at fuel level.
New out of the box the'll work fine for a year after that the'll wear out fast in the bore.
The'll all suffered from heat soak created by them self. When Facet's get hot they are not sufficient anymore to cope with the demand of the engine.
3.0V6 on tripple 40's couldn't do 3 hours highway cruise.
I have replaced about 5 pumps all genuine Facet.
My friend Rally Escort RS2000 had to swich pump (Facet blue top) every hour on a rally course till I suplied him two Holley pumps, 3th year for him on a row still running first pump without switching to the other.
I got the tip from several Classic car racers at Spa to swap pumps to a Holley red.
So I swapped pumps on all 3 cars and never had any fuel issues again. AFR is constant now.
Running AFR gauges in all my cars ant most lean conditions where traced back to the Facet pumps.
I am going to run Carter HP pumps on my GT40
All situated at fuel level.
New out of the box the'll work fine for a year after that the'll wear out fast in the bore.
The'll all suffered from heat soak created by them self. When Facet's get hot they are not sufficient anymore to cope with the demand of the engine.
3.0V6 on tripple 40's couldn't do 3 hours highway cruise.
I have replaced about 5 pumps all genuine Facet.
My friend Rally Escort RS2000 had to swich pump (Facet blue top) every hour on a rally course till I suplied him two Holley pumps, 3th year for him on a row still running first pump without switching to the other.
I got the tip from several Classic car racers at Spa to swap pumps to a Holley red.
So I swapped pumps on all 3 cars and never had any fuel issues again. AFR is constant now.
Running AFR gauges in all my cars ant most lean conditions where traced back to the Facet pumps.
I am going to run Carter HP pumps on my GT40
Oh...believe me, Frank - this is not a snap decision
I think I may have read every "which fuel pump" post on this Forum, pored over my library (some titles here):-
And scoured the paddock at last year's Oulton Park Gold Cup looking at fuel systems. Every elbow and connector has been checked to make sure there are no restrictions, I am using 10mmID hose throughout, I am only asking the pumps to lift less than half their specified height etc etc.
But, if there's something I've missed, I am all ears!
Eddy, call me if you want to discuss, too much info to write on here, but also too many experts ! FrankOh...believe me, Frank - this is not a snap decision
I think I may have read every "which fuel pump" post on this Forum, pored over my library (some titles here):-
And scoured the paddock at last year's Oulton Park Gold Cup looking at fuel systems. Every elbow and connector has been checked to make sure there are no restrictions, I am using 10mmID hose throughout, I am only asking the pumps to lift less than half their specified height etc etc.
But, if there's something I've missed, I am all ears!
Frank, I just opened another topic in the fueling room to discus this further hoping you will share your expertise to.
Ed McClements
Supporter
I have re-done my entire shift mechanism, using better-quality UJs from RS Components, 16mm thick-wall stainless tube and made my own pivot pins and screws - an M8 bolt has a major diameter on the unthreaded shank of about 7.6mm...enough to cause a lot of lost-motion between gear lever and the shift rod at the back of the car. It all adds up!
I also came across a bit of cherry wood on our log pile from a tree which blew over 2 or 3 years ago. The bottom part was infested with beetles and fungus, causing a spalted appearance, so I cut a piece off, turned it in the lathe and bonded-in a threaded bush to make a new knob.
Almost done. Just need to do final clean-up, add the 1-2-3-4-5-R stamps and make a side and top cover with some vinyl "leatherette" upholstery. I (finally!) achieved a good positive shift with next-to-no slop. Took a lot of work to engineer-out all the play but without adding friction.
I also came across a bit of cherry wood on our log pile from a tree which blew over 2 or 3 years ago. The bottom part was infested with beetles and fungus, causing a spalted appearance, so I cut a piece off, turned it in the lathe and bonded-in a threaded bush to make a new knob.
Almost done. Just need to do final clean-up, add the 1-2-3-4-5-R stamps and make a side and top cover with some vinyl "leatherette" upholstery. I (finally!) achieved a good positive shift with next-to-no slop. Took a lot of work to engineer-out all the play but without adding friction.
Neil
Supporter
Eddy;
There is a way to avoid the loose bolt clearance problem. If you use a close-tolerance bolt in a hole reamed to size it will give far better results. Never use a fully-threaded fastener in this application; you do not want a load bearing on the threads. Here is an example of a suitable bolt (attached photo). It is a 1/4-28 close-tolerance bolt with a shank size of 0.249" +/- 0.0005". You specify a "grip length" that allows the non-threaded shank to fit through the diameter of the joint and perhaps one washer thickness. In a hole reamed to 0.2500", your loose fastener problem is solved.
There is a way to avoid the loose bolt clearance problem. If you use a close-tolerance bolt in a hole reamed to size it will give far better results. Never use a fully-threaded fastener in this application; you do not want a load bearing on the threads. Here is an example of a suitable bolt (attached photo). It is a 1/4-28 close-tolerance bolt with a shank size of 0.249" +/- 0.0005". You specify a "grip length" that allows the non-threaded shank to fit through the diameter of the joint and perhaps one washer thickness. In a hole reamed to 0.2500", your loose fastener problem is solved.
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