Diesel engine options?

[Richard Kaye]

Hello everybody,

I'm looking for advice on installing a modern common-rail diesel, like a BMW 530d, in a GTD or finished similar car.

The torque of modern diesels is impressive and I hope you can advise.

Has anybody done this or is the straight-6 too long for the midship V8 engine bay?

I used my Banks Europa type47 as a daily driver and want the same fun again.

However, running a V8 petrol in the UK, and thus paying &*%$ taxes, does not appeal.

Be gentle - it's my first turn on this excellent forum!

Thanks for any thoughts...


Richard

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

The only diesel that I can think of that is short enough to be installed in a GT40 would be the 4cyl Mercedes unit from a 240D.....you'd have impressive fuel economy and very little performance. Not to mention the custom transaxle you'd need with all its' expensive adapters.

I don't know of any modern diesel engine that would give you enough performance, but there are a lot of passenger car diesels which are available in Europe and the UK which are not sold here. Audi, for example, make pretty high-output turbo diesels in the A3 and A4 model range which would be compact and small enough.

Instead of trying to fit a modern diesel to a vintage transaxle, you'd be better off trying to find a front-drive diesel car like an VW or Audi which already has the whole package. Then you just have to flip the ring gear, essentially, to get it to drive in the right direction. You may be also able to find a package from one of those cars where the engine is already ahead of the axle centerline and thus everything is oriented in the right fashion to begin with.

It doesn't take much torque to move these cars quickly; they only weigh about 1000kg read for the road, so you don't need a big engine. Now- whether a GTD, or any other GT40, is a suitable car for daily driving is another discussion entirely. I love my Cobra, but I don't drive it in bad weather, I don't drive it to work, and I don't drive it in the winter. (of course, it has no top, which a GT40 does). If I drive it 3000 miles in a year, that would be a lot. So if you are going to go to the expense of fitting out a GT40 as a daily driver, you'd be better off to buy a used one with a drivetrain already in it, and drive it for a while and see if the considerable inconveniences associated with driving the world's coolest sports car are something you want to put up with every day. Personally, I think it would take some of the fun out of it all to drive it ALL the time; I'd rather save it for special occasions and drive my Toyota truck the rest of the time.

 

[Ian Anderson]

How about the New V8 Diesel as found in the Range Rover (TDV8)
Something like 3.6l but big HP and Torque (272 hp and 640nm torque)

Have a look here
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/firstdrives/202899/range_rover.html

Ian

 

[Ian Anderson]

Or if is just fuel price that scares you fit a LPG cnversion to a petrol motor with a change over switch.

Ian

 

[Keith]

Mercedes all aluminium V6 diesel will make you smile. As for LPG, definitely the best way to go if you could turn the entire tube chassis into a gas tank!

 

[Jac Mac]

Diesel Mercedes V8 as being used or intended for Aircraft use. I have a pic , but cannot post due to size & privacy reasons, but it would fit nicely. Twin turbo -------

 

[Dave Bilyk]

Steady now Keith, remember the Hindenberg:shocked::laugh:

Dave

 

[Andy Green]

How about the Audi 2.7 & 3.0 TDI V6 engines. Shorter overall length adn the big advantage is that they already connected to a suitable transaxle

Regards
Andy

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Thinking about hauling livestock, or a manure spreader? Sorry, couldn't help it!

 

[Randy V]

How about the Audi 2.7 & 3.0 TDI V6 engines. Shorter overall length adn the big advantage is that they already connected to a suitable transaxle

Regards
Andy

After seeing the Diesels kick butt in the American Lemans system - I have nothing against them whatsoever...

 

[Brett James-McCall]

How about the New V8 Diesel as found in the Range Rover (TDV8)
Something like 3.6l but big HP and Torque (272 hp and 640nm torque)

Actually Ian even though they go in Land Rover, they are actually designed and manufactured by Ford, so in theory you would still have a Ford powertrain in there :laugh:

However, the same power output will soon be coming from the 3.0V6 diesel going in the XF, as recently annouced.

I can't say anything on what happens to V8.....

Brett

 

[emiel]

Hey guys come on,where has all the style and romantics gone.There where times when names like Jaguar,Lincoln,cadillac other sporty cars would turn heads.Now they put diesels(stinky diesels,bweikes) in them and suddenly everybody drives a jag or another excotic ,ok the excotic part has fallen off this cars somewhere the line.Theres not much left than an mondeo in disguise.What I would like to say is drive a car like it is mend to be.If you would like to have cheap transportation buy a mondeo diesel or equivalent.Don't go for a porsche diesel. (I know they can be quick and won lemans,but without a noise and no thrill) Give me the raw sound of the corvettes and I know this comes with a (gas)prize.So leave the gt40 the icon it is and don't spoil it with a diesel.Even it may be quicker than my old ford V8,Idon't care.Don't sell your soul.So this said when arrives the first Ferrari diesel???greetings Emiel.Not mend to offend someone just my point of vieuw.

 

[Randy V]

Diesel doubters - check these out...

YouTube - R10 TDi - DIESEL ENGINE
YouTube - HQ Audi R10 "A new dawn of power - Part 2"

Just listen to this one...
YouTube - Audi R10

YouTube - Audi R10 engine sound: quite amazing!

YouTube - Audi R10 Onboard - Le Mans 24 Hours 2006

YouTube - Audi R10 Le Mans Showtime 2007 in Neckarsulm

If I hadn't heard these cars in real life - I wouldn't be pushing this.. They are amazing.. If anyone can find a video where the sounds of the cars is not drowned out by the music - please post.. They are awesome...

 

[Thomas Rouw]

Steady now Keith, remember the Hindenberg:shocked::laugh:

Dave

whaha that made me laugh for a while,

back to topic, I think the USA crowd are underestimating the smaller european diesels quite a bit, At my club (dutch kitcarclub) there's a member that drives a VAG diesel in endurance and they make LOTS of power from just 1.9L 4 cylinder engines, upto 350hp is not uncommon, but fuel consumption wise you;d better be off fitting a RR merlin, I don't know wether it road tax or fuel tax you're having problem with.

sufficient to say a 4cyl in a GT40, no way!
a 4 cyl Diesel in a GT40 :lipsrsealed:

VAG also have a very perky (240hp 650NM) v8 diesel that is electronicly limited, so with a simple reprogram on VAGCOM you'd be looking at much much more.

not to mention the V12TDI (r10 deriviant) comming out in about next month, but that would probably not fit..... on the other hand one would be able to make place for a 1000nm of torque....

I would go LPG anytime and might be tempted to do that on a chevy LS..... and big eaton. best of both worlds. build it up with a system of Prins (http://www.prinsautogas.com/en) they have LPG injectors as a worlds first
have the car start on ron98 and switch automaticly to LPG once running like any normal LPG G3 system.
(did you know LPG has a much higher knock resistance than RON has? if it was in octane numbers normal LPG here in holland has about ron118 worth of it do I smell boost???)

Grtz Thomas

 

[Price Walton]

There's a discussion about CNG here as well. CNG turns out to have an octane rating of about 130. It's also quite plentiful, but like LPG is less dense than petrol, thus has higher volumetric consumption for it's calorific output.

Both require a pressure tank, which could be a bit of an impost to registration if you put a pair of them in the sills of a sports car.


It does make a supercharged V8 a very interesting prospect though, if you can get it to fit.

 

[Scott]

Instead of trying to fit a modern diesel to a vintage transaxle, you'd be better off trying to find a front-drive diesel car like an VW or Audi which already has the whole package. Then you just have to flip the ring gear, essentially, to get it to drive in the right direction. You may be also able to find a package from one of those cars where the engine is already ahead of the axle centerline and thus everything is oriented in the right fashion to begin with.

Ring gears cannot be flipped.

The problem with Modern common rail diesel engines is how highly dependent the engine management system is with other systems in the car. There is the immobilizer, transmission, traction control, instrument cluster, ABS, etc that the ecm takes inputs from requiring you to either rewrite the software or adapt those systems to your car. The only aftermaket standalone common rail EFI type system I have found is well over 10,000 usd.

If you want to go old school, you can get a mercedes OM6xx series engine, put a big turbo and do some pump mods and have upwards of 500hp (google superturbo mercedes).

 

[Thomas Rouw]

Indeed CNG is even better, but in holland you cannot get that at the pumps to date, and the home filling station that can be used for those who really want is more expensive than half my cars buget so.....
LPG does really good, been driving that in my renault for 400.000km and now in the honda 286.000 so both system payed themselves back for about 50 times.

also on the diesel ECU question, keep your eye at dutch firm "van Kronenburg" they've been operating under the KMS banner for quite a few years and have won many races in all sorts of motorsports, they're supposed to be in the finnishing stages of a CommonRail DI mappable ECU any time now, which will surely cost some dear money, but not the 10K bosh want for their unit.
Besides for audi VAGcom can do almost anything you want, just depends on who's programming it

2wd audi A6 and A8 series are oriented as such you could just ditch the whole driveline in the back of a G50

for other diesel oriented transaxles look no further than the Relault UN5 from an older renault Master (the square Bus) that's imensly strong.

grtz Thomas

 

[wrsexton]

I've been toying with an Audi fwd transaxle in my application, I see no reason why not use an Audi engine/trans combo. Surely you guys know by now, those are a T-drive, with the engine in front of the transaxle. As Scott said, no ring gear flip, and if you use the Audi drivetrain, you solve many of the electronic issues. Nothing wrong with abs on GT40, easy to get by using C5 running gear... )

 

[Mike Pass]

Diesel in a GT40??? Diesel in a GT40????
Why would you want a forty that sounds like a taxi? A GT40 is not an economy device. I get 18mpg (4 on a severe thrash) and 1000 smiles per mile. They are an expensive toy and a load of fun to boot. Why short change yourself on the main character of the car? What next - cheap wheels? flat panels? Make it a bit higher and more comfy? Blue neon lights underneath?
Diesel! Spawn of the devil! Beam me up Scotty....
Cheers
Mike

 

[Howard Jones]

How about a low performance SBF V8. A newly rebuilt 289 @ 180HP with a good highway gear like a R21 Renault should get 30MPG @ 60MPH. Maybe even a lot better. And it will still sound good with a set of headers.

No matter what anybody tells you. You will not use a GT40 as a primary mode of transportation if you commute to work each day a 1/2 hour or more and use it for all of the other life stuff that must be done, day in and day out. No room, dangerous in stop and go traffic (they can't see you, GT40's are too low), no fun in the rain, Most "She's" will grow to hate it very quickly if you force it on her every day, and on and on and on.

Think of a GT40 as a sport bike. Same thing really except with a roof and 4 wheels. What it is not is a cool looking VW rabbit.

I vote no on the diesel.