Is modern Capitalism on it's last legs?

[Keith]

There is no doubt you are gramatically correct Al but as it did not appear in the same sentence it does not count. You must have Jim on your radar to reply in such a fashion and of course, Jim's comment and your response are fairly typical of the tit for tat 'debates' so common here these days.

All I ask pretty please is for a reasonable non aligned debate on an issue which should concern us all.

Now, before you think I am being partisan here myself, I would just say that I think Graham and Nick are ass sucking pinko commie liberals and will have no truck with their comments

Get real (for once, please?)

 

[Chris P.]

"Liberal Capitalism" kind of an oxymoron wouldn't you say?

Not at all. Some people want to see it that way though, which then precludes any rational discussion on the topic right at the beginning such as we keep seeing over an over again...

*sigh* Are we ever going to be able to get past these issues in this country?

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Not at all. Some people want to see it that way though, which then precludes any rational discussion on the topic right at the beginning such as we keep seeing over an over again...

*sigh* Are we ever going to be able to get past these issues in this country?

Work your ass off, make lots of money so we can redistribute it? I think not.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

There is no doubt you are gramatically correct Al but as it did not appear in the same sentence it does not count. You must have Jim on your radar to reply in such a fashion and of course, Jim's comment and your response are fairly typical of the tit for tat 'debates' so common here these days.

All I ask pretty please is for a reasonable non aligned debate on an issue which should concern us all.

Now, before you think I am being partisan here myself, I would just say that I think Graham and Nick are ass sucking pinko commie liberals and will have no truck with their comments

Get real (for once, please?)

I certainly hope Capitalism isn't on it's last legs, who's going to support the other half?

 

[Terry Oxandale]

I can only speak from first-hand experience, so I'd like to offer the electric utility industry as an example of what some of this thread is about. Prior to "deregulation", the industry was much more heavily regulated to acceptable profits (the regulation stemed from abuse of customer investments and the few rules there were at that time). The deregulation opened all that back up to allow the Enrons of the world to once again, abuse the customer. How many parallels can we see in other industries. Re-regulation I think is one step to bring capitalism back. Regulation that balances business profits against consumers, rather than the latest trend toward no regulation.

 

[Chris P.]

Work your ass off, make lots of money so we can redistribute it? I think not.

That's a good point, but whereas the right supposedly lowers taxes and the left raises them, they both love to spend. Where will the money come from? Everyone here wants to see the spending go down, and hence taxes with it, but if an administration wants to spend (which they all do), they better at least man up and ask for the dough. I'm not saying that's right, but at least it makes logical financial sense. What I'm saying, I guess, is that bitching about taxes takes a back seat to spending. If spending were down, then yes, we'll ALL be bitching about taxes. Some of us see the necessity for taxes, however, when we're spending BILLIONS every year just for fuel in the Iraq war.

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Yes it is on it's last legs, this slightly altered version of the old story tells you why.

The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter.

The grasshopper thinks he’s a fool, and laughs and dances and plays the summer away.

Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed.

The shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while others less fortunate like him are cold and starving.

The ABC and Channel 9 show up to provide live coverage of the shivering grasshopper, with cuts to a video of the ant in his comfortable warm home with a table filled with food.

Australians are stunned that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so while others have plenty.

The Democrats, the Greens and the Coalition Against Poverty demonstrate in front of the ant’s house.

The ABC, interrupting an Aboriginal cultural festival special from North Queensland with breaking news, broadcasts them singing “We Shall Overcome.”

Bob Brown rants in an interview with Ray Martin that the ant has gotten rich off the backs of grasshoppers, and calls for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his “fair share.”

In response to polls, the Liberal/Labor Government drafts the Economic Equity and Grasshopper Anti-Discrimination Act, retrospective to the beginning of the summer.

It is quickly passed through the Senate.

The ant’s taxes are reassessed and he is also fined for failing to hire grasshoppers as helpers.

Without enough money to pay both the fine and his newly imposed retrospective taxes, his home is confiscated by the government.

The ant moves to Asia, and starts a successful agribiz company.

The TV stations later show the now fat grasshopper finishing up the last of the ant’s food though Spring is still months away, while the government owned house he is in, which just happens to be the ant’s old house crumbles around him because he hadn’t maintained it. Inadequate government funding is blamed, Kim Beasley now is appointed to head a commission of inquiry that will cost $10,000,000.

The grasshopper is soon dead of a drug overdose. The Sydney Morning Herald blames it on obvious failure of government to address the root causes of despair arising from social inequity.

The abandoned house is taken over by a gang of immigrant spiders, praised by the government for enriching Australia’s multicultural diversity, who promptly terrorize the community.

 

[Graham]

Work your ass off, make lots of money so we can redistribute it? I think not.

Who said that :huh:

 

[Nick]

Work your ass off, make lots of money so we can redistribute it? I think not.

Al,

At least they made lots of money. What about those that work their asses of and get paid a pittance.

 

[domtoni]

Someone said this earlier, but I believe the root of the problem is not capitalism or socialism (although I enjoy arguing my points of view), I do believe the real problem is our loss of morality, and the acceptance of too many distorted ways of living as natural and normal.

If people can be freed up from their short comings, then their genius can start to shine and real solutions to the problems can be found.

 

[Terry Oxandale]

True Domtoni, but any solution will always be a burr in someone's shorts, and it seems no one is willing to walk with it to the end.

 

[Graham]

Someone said this earlier, but I believe the root of the problem is not capitalism or socialism (although I enjoy arguing my points of view), I do believe the real problem is our loss of morality, and the acceptance of too many distorted ways of living as natural and normal.

If people can be freed up from their short comings, then their genius can start to shine and real solutions to the problems can be found.

Dom, I couldn't agree more. However there are some on this very forum that don't see that they have shortcomings.... But they have worked hard all their lives to hold onto every penny they have earned.

This in itself is only a part of the problem. We need to break the attitudes of big business and their lack of conscience when it comes to "ordinary" people. We must also break their stranglehold on government which they now have in their (deep) pockets. Only then can we hope to break the cycle that we are now in IMHO.

 

[domtoni]

Graham,

Not sure I understood what you say above regarding people holding onto every penny they have made. My point was the moral issue, we have allowed ourselves to accept things as normal, which in prior times, would have been considered way out of the ordinary.

With moral bankruptcy, our chances of getting out of the malaise will be difficult.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Al,

At least they made lots of money. What about those that work their asses of and get paid a pittance.

Nick, There will always be people whos ability or education get's them higher wages. Everyone cannot earn the same pay. There will always be people who earn less based on their ability.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Dom, I couldn't agree more. However there are some on this very forum that don't see that they have shortcomings.... But they have worked hard all their lives to hold onto every penny they have earned.

This in itself is only a part of the problem. We need to break the attitudes of big business and their lack of conscience when it comes to "ordinary" people. We must also break their stranglehold on government which they now have in their (deep) pockets. Only then can we hope to break the cycle that we are now in IMHO.

Actually it's just the opposite, government causes big business to feel apprehensive about spending money. If government doesn't breed confidence in their ability to do their job properly and not spend money they don't have like drunken idiots, big and small business with not be confident to spend money they do have.

 

[Graham]

Graham,

Not sure I understood what you say above regarding "people holding onto every penny they have made". My point was the moral issue, we have allowed ourselves to accept things as normal, which in prior times, would have been considered way out of the ordinary.

With moral bankruptcy, our chances of getting out of the malaise will be difficult.

Dom, the line "people holding onto every penny they have made" was meant to have a degree of disdain attached. Apologies if you didn't pick it up - It's tough to do emotions in words....

 

[Graham]

Actually it's just the opposite, government causes big business to feel apprehensive about spending money. If government doesn't breed confidence in their ability to do their job properly and not spend money they don't have like drunken idiots, big and small business with not be confident to spend money they do have.

I can't agree with you there Al. Big Business spent other peoples money like the mother of all alcoholics in the financial sector, and look where that got us :huh:

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

I can't agree with you there Al. Big Business spent other peoples money like the mother of all alcoholics in the financial sector, and look where that got us :huh:

The main reason we are where we are in the US is the housing market collapse. And that goes back to the government, deciding that everyone should own a home. So they made loans available to people that couldn't afford a used car and made the banks qualify these people for loans. Everyone cannot afford to own a home and some never will. There will always be executives and laborers, unless you want to make everyone executives or laborers.

 

[Jim Craik]

Graham,

I agree, it seems to me that big business is worried much more about the lack of spending, both by the private sector and Government.

 

[Mark]

One exeption there Graham, I don't class the banking sector as Big Business. I tend to agree with Al on the point that without stable government, business, (I refer to the literal use of the term, ie. an entity that makes or sells something, or services a sector etc) tend not to have the confidence to expand their spending/creating jobs or wealth.