Porsche 930 Starter Predicament

[Ron Earp]

Ok, I'm looking for any and all suggestions of a way out of this situation I've got myself into. Have a look at the pictures below of my starter mount location and chassis. I need a starter that can go in there and not foul on the chassis. If I have to one-off something, I'm game.

The motor should be moved further back to accommodate a starter, but, I like where the motor is now. It lines up nicely with everything and I like it further forward.

I know the starter pictured below will not fit because I bought one of those. It is not clockable. Jeff bought me a standard 911 starter that I'll have a look at tomorrow, but, I don't think it is going to fit either due to the solenoid.

The front shot is the ministarter I bought, the side shot black one is like the one I'll have a look at tomorrow.

Are there custom starter shops? Any clever, and not so clever, solutions will be entertained! :

Oh, picture is deceiving. The stater mount pocket is exactly inline with the front of the lower chassis bar when viewed from overhead. If you look at the picture it looks like it is maybe an inch or two in front of that, it is not.


Ron

 

[Gregg]

Re: A Starter Predicament

Ron, it appears that the simplest solution is to simply raise the engine/trans the amount necessary to clear the lower cross member. I know that pictures can be deceiving, but it appears that you have the clearance up top for the water pump, alternator etc. Do you? I would not go with a one-off starter. How many times have you had to change a starter in your other cars? You can't run down to the local auto parts and buy a one-off. One-off's soon become two-off, three-off.

 

[Russ Noble]

Re: A Starter Predicament

Ron, I'm pretty sure it is do-able using a Hi-Torque clockable starter from Kennedy or elsewhere. I have spent a lot of time looking at this for my own car. I too did not want to compromise my motor/trans position.

You will have to be a wee bit creative though. First the mounting stud on the bellhousing will have to be removed and swapped for a countersunk head cap screw. The starter mounting flange/adaptor will have to be removed from the starter and bolted up first after countersinking one hole. The threaded portions that receive the two small M5x45 mounting screws in the starter itself will need to be drilled out to 5mm clearance and and two M5 threaded holes tapped into the mounting flange/adaptor at the alignment you require. The screws then go in from the opposite direction to normal and bolt the starter up to the flange. A wee bit fiddly and the inside one is going to be a little tricky to get at. You will probably have to make a special allen key with a crank in it, unless you want to crawl under the car.

Hope that is of some assistance.

Cheers

 

[Ron Earp]

Re: A Starter Predicament

Moving the motor up isn't an option. The RCR car uses a mouting plate that adapts motor to trans, but it also indexes the hole assembly to the car with those big 5/8" bolts. So, the relation of the trans to the chassis can't change except fore and aft.

Russ, good ideas and description. Fran said about the same thing to me as well when I discussed it briefly with him too. Sounds doable, do you have yours done this way? My situation with the RCR car is unique with the Lola chassis, 930 transaxle, low Lola deck. Lots of things in there that would not cause a problem with a ZF, but, with as many combinations out there and then folks doing their own thing sooner or later a issue will pop up - and I made one. I'll get a clockable starter and check this out, have to sell the others I have. Anyone need some Porsche starters?

R

 

[Russ Noble]

Re: A Starter Predicament

Ron, I was going to do mine that way, but I don't like the big Porsche style flywheel that goes with it. And since I didn't have a flywheel to restrict me the current plan is to build my own compact flywheel with forward positioned 930 ring gear using a 928 starter mounted off the front of the trans adaptor plate. I need to use the 928 starter to get the right direction of rotation.

Also I'm hoping to upgrade my trans to something better in a couple of years time, but I need to retain the small Porsche diameter flywheel otherwise I'll have ground clearance issues. Doing it this way means I won't have to relocate the starter when I upgrade.

Don't worry, I'm 100% certain you have heaps of room to mount yours the way I described.

Good luck!

 

[Lynn Larsen]

Re: A Starter Predicament

Ron,

Kennedy talks about the use of a VW diesel starter. This picture is a one I found on eBay that looks as though the solenoid is clocked such that it might work.

They do say that they put a custom housing on it, but it may be worth investigating.

Don't think the Kennedy hi torque starter, even though clockable, will work. I'll post a pic tomorrow in evidence of this. (I'm on my wife's laptop as I watch LeMans downstairs.)


Lynn

 

[Randy V]

Re: A Starter Predicament

Watching carefully here... Hoping I don't have too many hurdles to overcome..

 

[Ron Earp]

Re: A Starter Predicament

Hey Lynn, thanks for that and the assistance. I'll converse with Fran too about the things he mentioned as well as Russ's plan there as well. Looks like I'll need to find one of those starters that is clockable, I just picked the wrong one it appears. When I bought mine I had a side picture of the starter and I figured it was like my Jensen gear reduction unit that could move around to about 10 positions.

Randy, you won't have any of these issues at all. If you are doing a GT40 all that stuff is "normal" and you won't have problems. I wouldn't have any issues either if I moved the motor back in the chassis, I'm just trying to avoid it. So, this is a self-created issue, nothing to do with RCR's car or a normal build.

It is a really straight shot from the back of the car to the starter pocket. Maybe we could fab up a crank system.......more simplicity, no electrics there....

Good to ask these questions. You never know when someone might just know something important, "hey, ZYX makes this thing and....".

R

 

[Lynn Larsen]

Re: A Starter Predicament

Here is a picture of a Kennedy Hi-Torque starter on a G50. Because the motor is offset (vs. the solenoid) and because of the mount bolt location, the $64K question will be if there is enough room between the mount bolt and the tranny case, and below the axle. Its hard to tell from 2D photos, but it appears that, if it fits, it will be very, very tight. I do think the hi-torque, gear reduction starter would be the best starter to use though.

Regards,
Lynn

 

[Randy V]

Re: A Starter Predicament

Randy, you won't have any of these issues at all. If you are doing a GT40 all that stuff is "normal" and you won't have problems. I wouldn't have any issues either if I moved the motor back in the chassis, I'm just trying to avoid it. So, this is a self-created issue, nothing to do with RCR's car or a normal build.
R

I hope you're right Ron. I thought that my GT40's engine was supposed to be located in the same manner as yours. I got an email from another member that he bought the same gear reduction starter you did and that it would not work either. I'm still a couple weeks from picking up my car from RCR so I am going from pictures at this point..

It is a really straight shot from the back of the car to the starter pocket. Maybe we could fab up a crank system.......more simplicity, no electrics there....
R

Good to ask these questions. You never know when someone might just know something important, "hey, ZYX makes this thing and....".
R

You know - way way back - before there were people that actually designed and built Hi-Torque starters, we used to build our own for Chevrolet applications. We would use a 6 Cylinder starter armature and the Field windings and housing for a Cadillac. These hybrid starters would crank over our 12:1 compression engines quite nicely but would overheat quickly if cranked too long..
I wish I had the knowledge in Porsches and other foreign makes as I have accumulated in regard to American made cars..

 

[Ron Earp]

Re: A Starter Predicament

You know - way way back - before there were people that actually designed and built Hi-Torque starters, we used to build our own for Chevrolet applications. We would use a 6 Cylinder starter armature and the Field windings and housing for a Cadillac. These hybrid starters would crank over our 12:1 compression engines quite nicely but would overheat quickly if cranked too long..
I wish I had the knowledge in Porsches and other foreign makes as I have accumulated in regard to American made cars..

Exactly!! I remember my dad and I used to get alternators and starters rebuilt at a place where I grew up in Burlington NC. I'm sure some of these places must still exist. I'm going to ask him if that one still does, and look here in Raleigh too. I'd think if you took a good place like that a Porsche starter and said "here is how far is has to fly out to the gear, here is the mounting flange, I don't want the solinoid there, I want it here" and so on, they should be able to build a pair.

 

[Ron Earp]

Re: A Starter Predicament

Here is a picture of a Kennedy Hi-Torque starter on a G50. Because the motor is offset (vs. the solenoid) and because of the mount bolt location, the $64K question will be if there is enough room between the mount bolt and the tranny case, and below the axle. Its hard to tell from 2D photos, but it appears that, if it fits, it will be very, very tight. I do think the hi-torque, gear reduction starter would be the best starter to use though.

Regards,
Lynn

Lynn, missed that post and picture somehow! That one looks like it would foul to me, but it would be hard to tell just on photos. I could probably order it from KED and it'd be here in September, so we could trial fit it then!

I think I'd be okay with a "normal" old fashion starter and here is my logic. I just got done disassembling my 260Z motor and I've not picked up a crank that heavy I don't think. Ditto flywheel and rods, that is a hell of a beefy motor. That old school Datsun non-gear reduction starter turns that motor at a 10:1 compression and does fairly well. The Ford motor I've got in the car is quite mild and I think a non-gear reduction unit would turn it okay too.

The non-gear reduction units are a straight shot back out of the hole except for the location of the blasted solinoid. Seems that if you can re-drill some holes you might be able to clock one of the old school starters. I'll have a look at this one when Jeff drops it by or I go get it from him.

 

[Russ Noble]

Re: A Starter Predicament

Ron, if you look at Lynn's photo you will see why you have to remove that stud and countersink it, and fit the mounting flange first. So you can rotate the starter further anticlockwise. Having done that you'll find you've got plenty of room.

OTOH if a standard starter will fit without all the mucking around then that would be a good way to go.

Cheers

 

Re: A Starter Predicament

Hi Ron
I bought the starter pictured for my G50 box it is pretty compact only 6 inches long from mounting @ 5 inches across it has a throw out pinion but up to the job of starting a V8 it was made for the Ultima GTR may do the job for you, if you need any measurements let me know i will try and locate a supplier if you think it may fit.
Mark

 

[Fran Hall RCR]

Re: A Starter Predicament

The reason Ron has this issue is that he has the engine mounted two inches too far forward...and he knows it too.......if the engine is mounted where we spec it to be the starter fits with no problem at all.....
The One off Lola has a G50 and had a starter fitted....
There is a reason we ask you to mount things in a certain place it is part of the design process......

 

[Ron Earp]

Re: A Starter Predicament

Hey Fran,

Yep, the motor is too far forward and solely my doing as mentioned. As we discussed it can be pulled back and I can use about any Porsche 911 starter, no issues. But I like the position it is in now and if it can be made to work there I prefer the position from a cg and cosmetic perspective. If there are no somewhat easy work arounds it'll go back two inches and the normal bits will be bolted up. Besides, if it is easy then everybody does it and what fun would that be? :

Mark, do you have any shots of the Ultima piece or dimensions?

In the end very few of the starters made for all the various cars are that much different in function, just in geometry. I imagine if you could stand in a "starter warehouse" with bins of flanges, motors, pinions, etc. you could make about anything under the sun.

Ron

 

[Ron Earp]

Re: A Starter Predicament

Hi Mark,

I must have missed the pictures somehow or stopped the page from loading. That thing looks like it could work. I'll make some measurements of absolute dimensions from the outside around my starter area. That could be a off the shelf solution. I see it is clockable too. While the bolts are not symetric new holes could be drilled. I think that could do it!

Ron

 

[BenL]

Re: A Starter Predicament

Would something like this fit, and have enough torque to spin a V8?
http://hometown.aol.com/martingf/Lotus.html

Or this one? http://www.tiltonracing.com/content.php?page=list2&id=31&m=s

 

[Iain]

Re: A Starter Predicament

Ron,
After exhaustive research, the smallest most powerfull starter assembly was the Tilton Super Starter, pictures attached. We manufactured a flywheel from billet so all the tooth pitch, depression angles etc were dealt with at that stage.

Iain

 

[Malcolm]

Re: A Starter Predicament

Could you not extend the throw out gear by 2 inches and then just space the starter back by 2 inches? Obviouly need to look at side loads on the extended spindle.