Superlite GTA

[Mark R]

I still keep an eye on it. I do like the direction this project has changed to, but I think it may have lost some of its original appeal.

For me (at least), I really liked the idea of taking a 'sporty' FWD car as a doner, and using as much as possible, moving the drivetrain to the rear and making a mid-engine project at a very minimal total cost. The GTA seems to be evolving into a better end state, but really only maintains the DSM cabin.

I guess time will tell if this project ever makes it to prime time.

 

[Fran Hall RCR]

"Prime time " what does that mean MarkR...concept cars that are only ever "pushers" with no drivetrain or chassis are displayed and considered
prime time in many eyes..

The Apex has already surpassed that position.

We are currently building a V8 version to quiet the naysayers and have multiple VW ones in process.

Cars evolve as do people and the Apex is no different.

 

[Mark R]

"Prime time " what does that mean MarkR...concept cars that are only ever "pushers" with no drivetrain or chassis are displayed and considered
prime time in many eyes..

The Apex has already surpassed that position.

We are currently building a V8 version to quiet the naysayers and have multiple VW ones in process.

Cars evolve as do people and the Apex is no different.

Hey! No disrepect intended! By "prime time", I meant to the stage where the SLC is at. ....Where its fully developped, ready for sale, and has happy customers reporting out a happy successful build.
**Edit** Its not Listed on the Website. Right? ... Thats all I meant.

For people like me, with tons of experience modding and restoring cars, that first jump into a full build is a bit intimadating. I can buy into a 60's era Ford, and know there are very few issues I will have to figure out on my own.

I totally get why the GTA project has evolved in these ways. I am still eager see how it turns out. As it morphs to improve appeal to one type of customer, is will probably become less appealing to others. Its just my observation, but I think there were at least a couple DSM/4g63 folks following this thread before the drivetrain change.

Surely Fran has a much better feel for what will benifit the overall project. (overstating the obvious)... I was just commenting on why the posting here seemed to be very slow.

 

[Fran Hall RCR]

Mark
no disrespect taken.

An all new design and concept takes years to be accepted and taken as the norm. The SLC was first conceived eight years ago and we are still making new parts to grow and evolve the package.. heck the 911 started in 1964 and they still makes them , sort of.

I could write pages about what I have learned about customer expectation, market share, development and advertising costs in regards to designing, marketing and selling these kinds of hand built cars suffice to say the Apex has great bones and lots of scope for anyone wanting to build a car....its a much simpler build than any of our others offerings due to the fact half the car is already OEM.

Sometimes I don't see where the concern lies with this particular build/package but having lived with it for almost three years I guess it looks so simple to us at RCR as its primarily a bolt together and body work package.

 

[Tom]

For me the concern was just that I've never built a vehicle before and there are no build threads, videos, or even peeks under the skin. For the SLC there are many of all of the above.

It'd be great if some build threads got going!

 

[Fran Hall RCR]

Tom,
There were no build threads for the SLC initially either...they will happen organically as cars come to life.

The swing away from the Mitsubishi drivetrain was due to potential customer feedback...I was all for it but if it hampers sales they its 'gotta go" and that's why I chose a drivetrain we are conversant with in our other models.

 

[Dustin Randle]

Fran I would love to see some video of the Apex but haven't seen any surface on youtube. Do you have anything showing your prototype running and driving around the parking lot or something?

 

[Scott Davis]

I think there's a bunch of people just waiting to see more of the finished product. Fran seems to have a lot of projects on his plate so its good to get reassurance from time to time that things are moving forward. I've just been trying to stay patient.

Honestly, I've also had some concerns on the build (difficulty not quality). I think technically the SLC could be billed as a "bolt together and body work package" as well. Despite this I've read several accounts from seasoned car builders that the SLC was "a challenge". This hasn't changed my interest in the APEX however and to be fair many of those challenges were probably created by trying to do something unique. As for the APEX, we'll just have to wait and see how some of the build logs go. I'm sure I'll be putting money down before any logs progress. I really just want to see some pics and video of the car which I'm hoping come soon.

So is this V-8 an example of a one off build that someone can do on their own or something that might be supported by RCR as an option?

 

[Matt K]

When will pics of the suspension, subframe, etc. be posted? I know why you've kept it a secret for so long but as soon as the first build thread is started (which I would hope is soon), it'll all be exposed. For those people that are interested but can't justify a shop visit at this point, it should go a long way. No reason to doubt the engineering but I think it's time. x2 on video too

 

[James]

I know this has been covered before, however there have been a few changes in the designs, so I will ask anyways.


Is there still a "target" weight the car will attempt to achieve? Yes, I do realize that every car will be a bit different do to engine/tranny configurations and if they have a sparten racing interior vs full leather with all the bells and whistles. However, just like the SLC there is a bit of a range of what the car will fall into. In fact, the weight is important to suspension design/geometry.


Also, would there be any FEA(?) numbers? Will the cabin require stiffening/reinforcement to fully take advantage of the entire system? I have had a hard time finding chassis data on the 2G. Yes, the front and rear structures may be extremely stiff, but all the advantages will be lost if the middle is a wet noodle.

Another questions, what is the weight of the cabin (donor)?

 

[mike]

Fran, I'm in. She's sexy.

A few questions for ya when you have a "spare" moment.

• Power steering?
• Power brakes?
• Gauge cluster... Eclipse, VW/Audi B5 platform adapted or aftermarket provided with kit?

Right now I'm assuming she's set up for manual steering & brakes like your other cars and is utilizing the stock Mitsu cluster.

Need to know these items so I know what I can toss or have to modify or keep on the Audi 2.7 twin turbo I'm building. I should be transferring a few Quid from my wallet to yours for an Apex this spring. It's the slow season for my business right now so I need to sit on my wallet for a bit. Sorry.

My plans so far:

• Audi 2.7 bored and stroked to 3.0 target 700-800 hp (crank) looking for about 550 - 600 RWHP.
• Twin GT2871 turbos set up like Audi R8 and Lamborghini aftermarket turbo kits
• Air/Water after-coolers with dual heat exchangers in the openings up front beside the radiator opening.
• Intake flipped with throttle body at back.
• 80mm Hemi throttle body
• VIPEC ECU
• Flex fuel
• Bolt Action 5 speed tranny.
• 7500 RPM redline ... (That's 204 mph with $300 DVZ code 5 speed):lipsrsealed:
• Stock GM Z06 wheels
• Orange paint with a gold pearl and some flat black accents.
• Black with orange inserts leather interior with a touch of carbon fiber bits.

The $500 eBay engine I have went from a mild freshening up to Lambo killer 700-800 hp 3.0 stroker build when it failed compression and leak-down tests. Stuck rings and scored bore on #2, a cracked oil pump and galling on all the valve stems on the 1-3 cylinder head is what I found.

Block's at the machine shop now getting tanked and poked out to an 83mm bore, stroker crank and chrome moly H beam rods are in and waiting for some custom JE pistons. I can't wait to see this block with some POR Ford T-Bird red on it. That's gonna be pretty with all the aluminum bits on this engine ... and a lack of all the extra unneeded OEM bits and EPA garbage hiding it.

Thinking about starting a build thread but right now all I could show is about 12 shelves of parts, a 30 gallon trash can full of parts I've thrown away tearing down this engine and share some, stories, tech tips and research I've done recently.

This is the photoshop that sealed the deal for me.. Your reputation doesn't hurt either. Me, I plan to paint the splitter too. Like many have done on the Ferrari 348, painting the front spoiler body color vs the factory black changes the whole look of the car for the better IMHO.

The Apex is as low as the BMW Z4 I recently sold and looks like the approach and departure angles are very similar so I know for a fact that the splitter on a daily driver will eat an occassional steep driveway and have some parking curb oops that will need to be repaired now and then.

 

[stevenml]

Fran,

For pricing purposes, what model years for the corvette suspension? It appears to be easier to simply purchase the entire front.

What components are needed for the rear?

Thanks

Steven

 

[Tom]

Tom,
There were no build threads for the SLC initially either...they will happen organically as cars come to life.

The swing away from the Mitsubishi drivetrain was due to potential customer feedback...I was all for it but if it hampers sales they its 'gotta go" and that's why I chose a drivetrain we are conversant with in our other models.

I was thinking about this and I decided that maybe part of it is that those of us who have never built a vehicle don't understand a) the timeframe involved to get a first kit off the line and then totally assembled and ready to go and b) the industry politics or trade secrets that need to be managed. Living in an instant gratification world, either of these could make it appear to us unknowing folks that things are taking forever. In reality maybe it's normal for this type of product.

I know for the company I work for, we would never show what's inside our products, yet our competitors get their hands on them and reverse engineer them anyway. Then again, we aren't making things that get sold "assembly required"!

 

[Fran Hall RCR]

Hey guys..

lots to cover.
Suspension.
Corvette C5 front and rear control arms, uprights, bearings, calipers, brakes steering rack.
Target weight
that's really very dependent upon the choice of drivetrain, size of turbo, intercooler etc etc .My goal is 2500lbs with the VW 1.8t/Passat
Power steering not necessary but the Corvette rack is power
Power brakes upto the customer as the OEM Eclipse has a booster

Torsional ridgity...none of the main cockpit/door structure gets removed, with the additional bolt in structure that creates a rear roll hoop there it is actually more structure and more strength.

Any potential builder has to keep in mind that they are building a car, its not an inanimate object..it requires commitment and personal challenge.
We are not assembling Ikea furniture.

Now one of the reasons that I have not pushed bringing the Apex to market faster and harder is that it is a new concept and I only have one chance to do it correctly.
Anyone reading through this entire thread will realise that we cannot possibly meet everyones desires for "their' dream project.

I have taken a back seat and watched and listened to the myriad of opinions and one thing that is evident is that nobody really knows what they want 100%

The Apex as a development project has actually been quite expensive even to this point. Even with my own clay modeling equipment and staff development racks up the $$$ very quickly.
The ROI at the $13k price point is a long one..meaning the margins are small.
at the intro price of $10k they don't exist.,,at these price points it is not feasible to offer billet componentry and the same level of completeness as our other kits.
So obviously as a company I am not going to waste time or money putting something to market that has no market.
My sitting back and reading and listening approach has been to negate this kind of faux pas from occurring.
As a company we may appear to make what we do look easy. with our capabilities to be diverse and handle one off projects and concepts as well as production kits. Trust me it is not easy and I for one work my arse off 24/7 if not more.

I love what I do and I enjoy the process of ideas becoming reality , with that said I am not going to sell a product that has a less than solid business case or enough margin to make that product sustainable.

As I have said before the 4cyl. VW drivetrain choice is a good one and is the only one we will support entirely from the factory, btw the V8's we are doing are for a guy that has multiples on order and he is paying extra for the service...so no extra skin off my back....in short if the VW package its not well received and doesn't hit the numbers than so be it.
Should that eventually unfold to be the case then the Apex will have been a great learning experience and those that have placed orders will have a killer car for a great price.
I hope its not the way but I am a realist too...I stopped production of my SL-Razor as it was a loss leader and didn't make good business sense even though the car is a cracking performer.

Hope this makes sense to some of you riding the fence , some it may scare away (cant see why but...) and others it may entice them to order sooner rather than later but either way....nothing to hide and no hidden agenda here...

Enjoy fellas...

 

[Jeff]

As I have said before the 4cyl. VW drivetrain choice is a good one and is the only one we will support entirely from the factory, btw the V8's we are doing are for a guy that has multiples on order and he is paying extra for the service...so no extra skin off my back.......

I am a fan of the change to the VW drivetrain. I've owned several 1.8T cars and several TDI cars. You have made it crystal, that is the drivetrain source that will be supported in the cost of the kit.

"What if"... a person was determined to go a different route but was hesitant about getting the engine/trans mounts sorted to work properly in the chassis, would it be possible to pay a fee above the cost of the kit for some basic guidance? Like an add-on option. Obviously you would set terms on how far the "guidance" would go....

Jeff-

 

[Tom]

That's great insight Fran. I can't fault the business approach. I also agree that you only have 1 chance to get it right. Look at the 818. Yes they have sold a bunch and people seem happy with them, but there are also a lot of people who were turned off by what seemed a great concept because:

- they held a design contest and then ignored it and went with the original design anyway
- the original design is in a lot of people's eyes not attractive
- it was as released only a topless design, with things like the windshield and wipers being afterthoughts.
- it seems to have a lot of bodywork issues
- I'm sure there are more that I'd know about if I had really been serious about getting into one

I like the direction the Apex is going now. I ended up deciding it wasn't quite the right time to build something and I got my FR-S instead (which I love). I could be back in a few years when I've got a kid out of college and need a little something more than the FR-S. . .

In the meantime, I'll still live vicariously through others building cool things on this site. Keep up the good work! I can't wait to see some Apex build threads going!

 

[mike]

Thank you Fran.

I think you have a home run here. The Apex fills a huge void in the Kit/Component car world.

It's a true all weather daily driver. Only one of it's kind.
Cost of entry is low and cost to finish can be less than half of what most component kit supercars cost to finish.
It's unique, sexy and rare enough to make a Ferrari or Lamborghini owner ask what kind of car it is.


Folks, for those that haven't followed the component kit car world and cars like the GTM, SLC, 818, Cobras, GT40s, Ultima... It won't take long for some aftermarket parts (especially billet aluminum parts) to start being made for this car as enthusiasts come up with new and cool ideas for grills, hinges, wings, mounts, exhaust etc as the car matures and gains a following.

 

[Eric in Florida]

I am loooking forward to watching some build threads and seeing the car compelte. Frankly the 818 is just plain ole vanilla looking and the Apex offers a lot in terms of oem appeal with regard to the interior and very nice body work to boot, more contemporary looking for certian. Definitly looking forward to seeing it done and see how it looks out in the wild. Looking to order a project this summer, hopefully some Apex are done so I can see it. Seems the Chinese made Tong Jian S11 has a strong resembelance but that may just be my eye though.

 

[Leon R]

As I said you can use the engine but it will have to be mated to a longitudinal VW /AUDI transaxle....there is no longer room for transverse engine package using the suspension components we have redesigned the package to use.

The swing away from the Mitsubishi drivetrain was due to potential customer feedback...I was all for it but if it hampers sales they its 'gotta go" and that's why I chose a drivetrain we are conversant with in our other models.

So... what was THE reason: the room constrains or the potential customer feedback? I understand the packaging reasoning, if can’t fit, it can’t fit. But “customer feedback” is a different story, I know of several (mature…) DSM enthusiasts who lost interest in APEX because of drivetrain change. As for others, I do not think many people understand 4G63 engine’s capabilities at VERY LOW budget! I can’t possibly image how VW can come even close to 4G63 bang for the buck (never mind actually surpassing it).

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DSM enthusiasts (especially the old timers) are pretty serious “do it yourselfers” and racers , most have been moving onto newer platforms because our beloved 4G63 vehicles have become too old or they look like they should be driven by an 18 year old kid. APEX could have be THE VEHICLE for us to stick with DSMs. Your current course will miss most of that market…

 

[Eric in Florida]

Not sure what RCR's rationale is but I was relieved to see the VW switch myself.

Just me thinking out loud, not speaking for any one, but I would speculate that the number of young males with big ideas and no skill who own clapped out eclipse's would love the opportunity to "re-body" thier ride and subsequently fail is very LARGE. If it were me.... I'd have concern that the Apex could end up as a punch line.