Superlite GTA

[Leon R]

Do you have 8+ 4G63s in varies stages of assembly in your garage?

I was measuring of a few parts I am shipping tomorrow, so I put some engine parts on the scale:

7 bolt block 95lbs + gurgle 11lbs = 106lbs (6 bolt block shold be closer to 100lbs).

Crank, rods and pistons 42lbs

Head (complete with valvetrain, cams and sprockets) 52lbs.

So here you have a long block coming in at 200lbs even! These are stock parts that can easily take 500-600 whp!!! That is one of the reasons why it is such a special engine!

The only time you see balance shafts in a rebuilt 4G63, is when it is required by a sunctioning body (like SCCA in some classes).

 

[James]

I was pretty close on the block/crank except not adding pistons and rods to the weight.
of 150lbs, which you showed there. The Head weighs 51lbs

So for a breakdown

Bare Long block ------ 200lbs (give or take)
Flywheel -------------- 20lbs?
Clutch------------------7lbs (for a light one)
Alternator---------------?
Water Pump-------------?
Pullies-------------------?
Intake Mani-------------?
Exhaust Mani------------?
Turbo-------------------15lbs at least
Oil----------------------?
oil pump----------------?
Oil Pan-----------------?

I'm not counting the A/C compressor, though, I unless it's strictly a track car, you'll need it. I'm thinking a fully assembled engine (ready to drop in) will come in closer to 330-350lbs.

 

[Leon R]

Stock FW is 20lbs. But you wouldn't use it on a light RWD car (plus, they are known to come apart like a handgranade and should be avoided on high revving applications). Aftermarket FWs are 7-11lbs. There are numerous dual disc clutches ~15lbs total weight. In ether case, I did not count it in my 250lbs, but I already listed it separately.

Alternator and other accessories weigh the same between different motor brands, so I do not see the need to get into those.

I saved some weight by using sheetmetal intake. More weight can be reduced by using a short tubular header. They are known to crack on daily drivers, but should be OK on a race car.

On the other hand, you could get carried away with a huge T4 turbo and a long runner header and add 40 extra pounds in the turbo weight! But that isn't necessary until 800+ hp levels...

If people are interested, I can throw other odds and ends on the scale. However, most of them are made from aluminum and wouldn't be that much extra weight.

 

[Jason]

I looked and looked for actual weights and only came up with a few. Leon, awesome stuff! Thanks for the real world weights of these components (mad props).

I had wondered if the 420-480 was a little on the portly side but was all I could gather from the forums. I think some of those were shipping weights which are hit or miss from my experience. What are the chances you could weight a complete and fully dressed long block?

Is this something that should spawn a new "Apex 4G63-related" thread???

 

[Justin]

Is this something that should spawn a new "Apex 4G63-related" thread???

I would keep it all here for now. And the reason being that there's pics of the LMP in three or four different threads. It kind of makes it harder for people who are just discovering that car. The Apex info is all right here. Until the car begins production, I think we should keep all the info here.

Just my opinion.

 

[Leon R]

Until Fran gives us something of substance to drool over, I can entertain you guys with part photos with their weights.

Unfortunately, my shipping scale only does to 110lbs. So I have to measure in bits and pieces and then add it all together. Weighting a complete engine is not an option.

I put together box containing: timing belt pulleys, front case w/oil pump, water pump, motor mount/belt tensioner, mail pulley and oil filter housing.

Forced Performance Red turbo, capable of 500-550whp:

Valve cover:

Factory cast intake manifold (quete good! Many people have made up 600whp on it!!!):

Tubular header:

Factory cast manifold with throttle body:

Sheet metal intake w/throttle body. This is one of the most effective weight savings on this engine:

So the summary of my measurements (lbs):

Block (7 bolt)……………………….106
Crank/rods/pistons…………………41.6
Head…………………………………51.2
Valve Cover…………………………5.3
FP Red……………………………..14.8
Tubular Header……………………..9.1 (Cast header 11.5lbs)
Sheet metal intake w/TB…………. 5.2 (cast Intake manifold 19.2)
Pulleys, Pumps, front case……….17.7
Oil pan………………………………..4.9

Total:…………………………………255.8lbs

So, OK, I was off by 6lbs . This is a VERY light engine, considering what power levels it can make AND survive!

 

[Greg Wolfe]

Some good info guys, keep it coming. I am such a newbie whenever it comes to the 4g63.

Mr. Wolfe

 

[James]

Until Fran gives us something of substance to drool over, I can entertain you guys with part photos with their weights.

Unfortunately, my shipping scale only does to 110lbs. So I have to measure in bits and pieces and then add it all together. Weighting a complete engine is not an option.

I put together box containing: timing belt pulleys, front case w/oil pump, water pump, motor mount/belt tensioner, mail pulley and oil filter housing.

Forced Performance Red turbo, capable of 500-550whp:

Valve cover:

Factory cast intake manifold (quete good! Many people have made up 600whp on it!!!):

Tubular header:

Factory cast manifold with throttle body:

Sheet metal intake w/throttle body. This is one of the most effective weight savings on this engine:

So the summary of my measurements (lbs):

Block (7 bolt)……………………….106
Crank/rods/pistons…………………41.6
Head…………………………………51.2
Valve Cover…………………………5.3
FP Red……………………………..14.8
Tubular Header……………………..9.1 (Cast header 11.5lbs)
Sheet metal intake w/TB…………. 5.2 (cast Intake manifold 19.2)
Pulleys, Pumps, front case……….17.7
Oil pan………………………………..4.9

Total:…………………………………255.8lbs

So, OK, I was off by 6lbs . This is a VERY light engine, considering what power levels it can make AND survive!

Good enough, also makes me consider looking into a sheet metal manifold for my SR.

I guess when it comes to weights, it's just a matter of semantics. What you and I consider a full engine differ (fully dressed or not). That is why we might be having a difference of opinion in the beginning. The Sr20 weighs 315lbs fully dressed (e.g. alternator, flywheel, clutch, manifolds, turbo, fluids, ect ect) with stock parts. I've since added a lightweight flywheel (10lbs), lightweight clutch (don't know how much weight savings but it weighs half the weight of the stock one),


Good work though on the weights, will give people a sense on where to shave a few pounds here and there.

 

[Guillaume NL]

Speaking of sheet metal manifold, what do guys think about this one? Overpriced?? Worth it??? It does look good and is made by reputable builder.

Race Series Intake Manifold for 2G DSM and Evo I to III | Magnus Motorsports

Cheers!

 

[Leon R]

Magnus is a good company and this is one of their best known products (I have one on my van), but there are hundreds of "what is the best intake" discussions in the DSM communities, I would strongly recommend keeping it there! Or this could get SERIOUSLY off topic!

 

[Guillaume NL]

but there are hundreds of "what is the best intake" discussions in the DSM communities, I would strongly recommend keeping it there! Or this could get SERIOUSLY off topic!

You are prob right, just trying to create a bit of traffic/interest on this thread until the Apex is unvealed

Cheers!

 

[Josh Duncan]

Is there a way of characterizing how much the DSM unibody passenger compartment will contribute to the Apex's rigidity or lack-there-of?

My 95 TSI is a bit of a wet noodle but I don't know how much of that is the stock-ish suspension and how much of it is the flex in the sunroof-equipped body. I only race it in a straight line for that reason but I would certainly want to take an Apex out on the High Plains Raceway.

I guess what I am really asking is how much will the race inspired front and rear subframes and suspension be compromised by the Eclipse bit in the middle

I skimmed through the whole thread and didn't see this discussion but I apologize if I overlooked it and this has already been addressed.

 

[Fran Hall RCR]

It wont be a wet noodle...I guarantee it....

I would not be going to all the trouble we are and then sell a substandard product that wont take the abuse or perform as desired..

 

[Josh Duncan]

It wont be a wet noodle...I guarantee it....

I would not be going to all the trouble we are and then sell a substandard product that wont take the abuse or perform as desired..

Thanks Fran, no insult intended just asking if there was some way to characterize, such as "The unibody is actually fairly rigid; it appears that much of the flex in the stock form is due to poor bracing of the strut towers" or "the primary weakness of the stock cage is torsionally, but the removal of the sunroof and bracing under the roof skin addresses much of that weekness" or something like that. I certainly wasn't implying that it would be a "substandard product." "Perform as desired" isn't terribly technical or specific though.

 

[Fran Hall RCR]

As we build National Championship winning race cars...I guess that would be what I perceived as "performing as desired"...but maybe that just me.

Maybe your description of "wet noodle" is actually more technical and specific....:laugh:

 

[John Ross]

LOL! Got to love that restrained sense of humor! Reminds me of a joke:

During the bombardment in WWII, a London constable ran to a four-story building that had just been demolished by a bomb, searching for the injured. After nearly an hour, he extricated himself from the rubble. Having determined the building had fortunately been empty when the bomb hit, he began to trudge back to the station to clean himself up.

An elderly woman, who happened to be the neighborhood busybody, saw him and immediately took him to task for the deplorable condition of his uniform.

The constable nodded in agreement, and said, "That's the worst of Navy serge, Mum. Shows every speck of dust."

 

[Josh Duncan]

As we build National Championship winning race cars...I guess that would be what I perceived as "performing as desired"...but maybe that just me.

Maybe your description of "wet noodle" is actually more technical and specific....:laugh:

:huh: Interesting way to engage a conversation with a potential customer.

I was polite, considerate of mentioning that if it had been discussed you could simply reference that conversation, and asked what I believe is a valid question.

You chose to respond with trust me, I'm awesome, and poke fun at my choice of words, which I agree were not technical nor meant to be.

If believed your other products were God's gift to the automotive world I would still ask questions but obviously that isn't welcome here.

 

[MikeN]

No need to be defensive, I believe Fran is trying to be secret about the design until the revealing day. I asked the same chassis question before and never really got a straight answer. Maybe they are still testing it and working out the kinks, or maybe they just don't want to give away the industry secrets. For whatever reason it is, let's just sit back and see the final product first before asking technical questions.

I know I can't wait.

 

[Fran Hall RCR]

Agreed....

we are working our asses off on the Apex and other products that are coming to market soon...along with the new LMP car that we are running next week ...and moving factories...

So pardon me if I offended, not my intention....

 

[John Ross]

:huh: Interesting way to engage a conversation with a potential customer.

I was polite, considerate of mentioning that if it had been discussed you could simply reference that conversation, and asked what I believe is a valid question.

You chose to respond with trust me, I'm awesome, and poke fun at my choice of words, which I agree were not technical nor meant to be.

If believed your other products were God's gift to the automotive world I would still ask questions but obviously that isn't welcome here.

What Darkdevil said.

If it makes you feel any better, Dodge's SRT department gave me much the same kind of response that you got from Fran when I asked about the Gen 3 Viper as the owner of a Gen 2, and John Heinracy did the same at GM when I asked him about the new Corvette as a Corvette owner.

And to top all that off, mine is (I believe) the first LS4 Apex being built, and I don't know any more about its stiffness than you do.

Fran doesn't want to have any of Gerry Weigart's DNA...

JR