GT40s.com Paddock Politics Thread

[Kevin L]

I find it interesting that even though a fundamentally British issue, certain Americans are getting tied up in knots over it.

I think that it is an impactful decision to the global economy which will end up impacting everyone.. not sure it is fully clear in what way yet. Time will tell

It is what it is and we now have to work on it. I see the result as a precursor for something better down the line and I full predict we will see some new faces at the helm when the dust settles. Politicians with vision & conviction not the unelected mud coloured Euro-clones that dominate our lives with rules & regulations that only the British, yes, that's right, only the British obey.

Whichever laws are passed in Brussels, they are almost completely ignored in France, from Fishing to Farming. French & Spanish trawlers take British registered boats and fish up to our harbour steps, whilst our own minimal fleet get surrounded, sabotaged and screwed up if we venture within 3 miles of the French coast (which we are entitled to do). The authorities take not a blind bit of notice.

Our lamb is much in demand abroad but owing to market CAP farmers get less that £25 for a whole sheep. It's hardly worth rearing them and yet we have millions of acres of fields 'set-aside' as we are not allowed to grow/produce on that land to keep farmers prices artificially high. It goes on and on.

I respect that the UK has followed the "rules" of the EU more than other participants and that those rules have harmed or caused challenges to some parts of the economy. On the other hand it has also supported and enhanced many other areas. An example is that the financial services area has been a boon to the UK (cue the hatred toward bankers now) where other foreign banks have landed in London because of the high quality talent, good labor laws, and access to the entire EU. There is good chance that they will have to pull out many of their operations because of this. In addition the UK may now need to negotiate all new trade deals to get that lamb, fish, and other exports out of the country and into others, now including to the EU.

My point is not losing jobs in London will impact the UK all that much, only that when there are consortiums there are always places in the economy that win and others that don't win as much, in fact they may lose. But, the goal should be as a whole does the entire country do better being part of it. The voters said no, I respect that. I just would have voted the other way since I think it does.

To put the matter straight. In 1975 we voted for a 'common market' NOT a Federal Europe' .This progression was hidden from the voters in the depths of the treaties and we only became aware of the ghastly contents in a trickle-down fashion.

If you are referring to the UK joining the EEC, that was in 1973 which was after De Gaulle left since he put up unreasonable barriers for UK entry in 1963..

If you are referring to the vote to stay in the EEC, yes, I agree that was in 1975. Not sure how to reflect on the trickle down comment... The UK has been vocal in a lot of areas of the EU getting put in place including during the Maastricht Treaty. If you feel the voters and public were not made aware then I can't agree or disagree as I am not part of the population there.

I could go on, but I would like to point out to Mr Young, that what swung the final vote to LEAVE was Labour's traditional tranche of votes from the British Working Class. This was unexpected but they are also the ones most affected by the serious issues of immigration and security by virtue of their geography.

I agree, it would appear that there is a great divide, the US is experiencing the same (in my opinion). My challenge is that people want their real or perceived jobs protected by the government from "these immigrants" who may be willing to do the work cheaper. This ends up being an inflammatory topic but I do think it is part of the reason more young voters wanted to stay and older voters wanted exit. Yes, I assume I will need a flame suit for this part of the post.

If democracy is to be applauded, then so must the huge number of voters who turned out to register their vote. It is the highest percentage of the population on record to do so.

I don't know what sort of whacky world you inhabit Jeff, but I celebrate the referendum - no-one got shot in a polling station and there was no violence - just a great nation exercising its democratic rights calmly and peacefully.

Agree, great that it was participated in by a large number of voters and it was democracy in motion. This is the design of it and the "exit" vote won.

As for 'globalisation' - all that has led to are companies or entities more powerful & richer than governments and completely unrepresented by the People.

I disagree with this being the definition of "globalisation" although I do submit that in the last 10 years there is a collapse of the middle class.

That said, goods worldwide are now produced cheaper and at least the population of the US has really enjoyed the ability to purchase things that 50 years ago they could not. I am a firm believer that having zero tariffs and enabling companies to source labor at cheap rates to enable a better price of goods is a good thing; it is capitalism. Unfortunately the definition of capitalism is creative destruction.

In fact Marxism, the lynchpin of International Socialism would appear to have more in common with globalisation that's the so called 'free market' who's entire world production is carved up amongst the big players. So perhaps Jeff, this is the model you should be leaning towards.?

Perhaps but I would suggest the whole protectionalism will end up putting a cap on the society that retreats to its own borders.. they will end up worse than before. This goes for the rhetoric going on in the US as well.

As I mentioned a few posts ago, I still don't quite get this whole "Freedom" thing that some of the papers are saying about "Exit". It isn't really going to give much freedom or change for many years. I said 5 before, could be 10. We won't get to see the benifit or detriment of this change for an awful long time. So if it is a win for the prospect of freedom then good for that.

The elephant in the room of globalisation is of course, climate change. It's going to be hard to balance your unelected dynasties with their need to curtail their manufacturing processes.

Yeah.. that one is a problem. The developing countries are going to get it the worst. At least in the US, the UK, and other 1st world nations we were able to destroy the environment and drive climate change before anyone was the wiser...we got rich and now get to shut the valve off.

Keith, I didn't mean to call you out specifically with this response. I just thought you had a well structured and thoughtful post which I could add points to.

Last comment is that I believe the EU is a challenged structure as there is no way to truly enforce financial rules without owning the government as well; which the EU should not do. As proof of this I lost a bet a few years ago, I was committed that the EU would dismantle when Greece problems started; I was just a few years early.

Kevin

 

[Kevin L]

Wow, apparently Great Britian had a democratic referendum on whether to stay in the E.U. Or leave. The result was leave. Now all those who do not like that decision are railing against it, getting their blood pressure up and their knickers in a twist.
Well my father fought for democracy and probably yours did too. It was a democratic process and more people voted than at any previous general election.
Time to accept the people's decision and move on, the World will not end, new trade agreements with Great Britian and her major trading partners are already being redrawn.

True words

Get over it.

Only after another scotch

 

[Marcus]

After the referendum it is how it is. No one knows what will be. All follow-up discussions are total pigswill.

 

[Pat]

Gee, I've actually been provoked into providing some "pigswill".

This thread (in spite of some random idiocy) has been interesting to read and I personally appreciate the perspective of the UK forum participants. Keith, I don’t agree with you on a lot of things but your views of the BREXIT clarified a great deal for me and I found your insights valuable in reaching my own conclusions. Thanks for doing that.

That said, there are some obvious facts that seem to be obscured by all the pearl clutching hysteria.
The UK is a world leader in science and technology, they are the 15th largest producer of energy on the planet (and home to a number of large energy companies), as well as London being one of the three "command centers" of the global economy (alongside New York City and Tokyo). The world demand for all this isn’t going to go away, EU or not. As Ludwig Erhard said, “Without Britain, Europe would only be a torso”. Arguably, Europe needs the UK more than the other way ‘round. Germany, whose hegemony over the E.U. perhaps has worn thin, needs the UK market without which would see German exports shrink by 15 per cent, with 75 billion euros in annual German exports facing extra costs. They are not going to let that happen. The U.S. (in spite of the silliness of the current occupant of our White House) will not put the UK in the "back of the queue" on trade, especially with the new favorable dollar to BP rate.
Cargo ships will not stop at sea, my order to Demon Tweeks will be processed and the flights will continue to go back and forth from Heathrow. Over time, new trade and commerce paths will be formed. Deals will be cut and they will probably be more favorable to the UK. The alternative is the continued slow slide into the abyss of a Eurozone debt union and the bloated and unaccountable bureaucracy that has come to dominate Brussels and seemingly micromanage the lives of ordinary Britons. Hopefully the shock will force the remaining Eurozone countries to address the continent’s economic malaise by structural, free-market reforms rather Berlin’s unsustainable propensity for doling out cheap cash.
The other simple fact is that a huge voter turnout rejected the E.U. Democracies get to do that. The will of the voters should be respected. Calling them names solves nothing.
In my opinion, there are going to be fortunes made as this will be a smokin’ hot opportunity to invest in the UK when the market is down and apparently undervalued. It will provide what will be massive tourist boom and demand for high dollar UK durable goods. The valuation will level out at some point and stability will return. I suspect the Chinese will come in hot and heavy to the real estate market as they have done in the U.S. When the dust settles, it will all work out. In the meantime, I’ve got to update the passports for me and the wife and obtain directions to the Cotswolds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GvkyKEYRnM

 

[Steve]

On this side of the pond, the common assumption has been the EU was simply a trading block with open borders. I'm learning more every day about the true depth of the control that Brussels has. The ESM, in particular, is a frightening concept. In the end, it would seem the EU would like to be the filter that all money travels through, directing it to whom they choose. They remind me of the IOC and FIFA.

In the 20th century, socialism and communism promised equality, fairness, and prosperity through a collectivist state. What it gave us was a tight concentration of power among corrupt dictators and party loyalists who were brutal in their repression of society along with widespread poverty and oppression.

In the 21st century, social democracy seems to be making the same promises, with the same concentration of power. Once again, the claim is the process if for your own good, you'll be happier, you'll be better off, you'll have security. The weapons now are money, the financial systems, and legal obfuscation. Essentially, the people will elect/vote for individuals/policies who will in turn remove the rights of the people and turn control/power over to the state. The beauty here, is it requires no war, no revolution, no bloodshed. Criticizing or disagreeing with these opinions are denigrated as inappropriate, ignorant, racist, hateful, or any other PC term that minimizes the criticism (while at the same time flying in the face of free speech).

When I was in Norway last year, everyone I met was so thankful for not being part of the EU. I'm not sure Greece has been well served by the EU either (that can is still being kicked down the street).

Maybe this was a bad move by the UK, but I think voting for self-determination and free-will usually results in greater happiness, even if it doesn't lead to greater economic prosperity

 

[Nick]

Wow, apparently Great Britian had a democratic referendum on whether to stay in the E.U. Or leave. The result was leave. Now all those who do not like that decision are railing against it, getting their blood pressure up and their knickers in a twist.
Well my father fought for democracy and probably yours did too. It was a democratic process and more people voted than at any previous general election.
Time to accept the people's decision and move on, the World will not end, new trade agreements with Great Britian and her major trading partners are already being redrawn.
Get over it.

Very valid point Pete and I actually agree.

Although of course it would mean the demise of the politics thread, maybe not a bad thing.

Since of course, Obama was elected by a democratic process, as are governments and prime ministers in Australia, Europe and elsewhere both Socialist and Conservative. maybe as you say all those who don't like it when their party Prime Minister or President doesn't win should calm down, stop railing against it and all get over it.

Big problem is of course we are all human and all have feelings and opinions

 

[Mike Pass]

No further comment needed.

 

[Nick]

No further comment needed.

Facebook Stalker :lol: you will be watching Jeremy Kyle next!

It is getting ridiculous on the petitions issue though.

 

[Mike Pass]

Yes indeed! I'm down with the kids as you well know.
Cheers
Mike

 

[Jeff Young]

No further comment needed.

Tell me about it. We elected President Obama twice by a margin equal to or higher than this referendum's vote and we still have folks on this board who refuse to accept the results of the election.

Since this vote affects everyone, as can be seen by the market's reaction to it, I'm certainly entitled to have an opinion about. That doesn't mean I don't accept the result. But I can comment on why the result is stupid (never said a word about you personally Keith) and explain why.

Of course that sets off people into the stratosphere, but that's nothing new.

 

[Steve]

It will likely be 10 years before the 20:20 retrospectoscope allows us to determine the genius/stupidity of this vote. The so-called experts who feel certain one way or the other are overconfident. Too many variables (and factors yet to be determined such as what replaces the US/EU trade agreements in the UK) for anyone to know at this time.

That being said, I'd rather be less well off economically and be free to self-determine my future rather than indenture myself to unelected bureaucrats so I can line up to the trough and hope they like me enough to give me my share of the scraps.

 

[Mike Pass]

I rest my case M'lud.

 

[Larry L.]

Of course that sets off people into the stratosphere, but that's nothing new.

LOL!!! Look who's talking! :lol::lol::lol:

A-hummm...Uh...'Sorry. 'Going to my room now...

 

[Nick]

It will likely be 10 years before the 20:20 retrospectoscope allows us to determine the genius/stupidity of this vote. The so-called experts who feel certain one way or the other are overconfident. Too many variables (and factors yet to be determined such as what replaces the US/EU trade agreements in the UK) for anyone to know at this time.

That being said, I'd rather be less well off economically and be free to self-determine my future rather than indenture myself to unelected bureaucrats so I can line up to the trough and hope they like me enough to give me my share of the scraps.

As a remain voter, I accept 100% the democratic process has given us an out vote which needs to be accepted, and it is time to move on.

However, before I do, these are photographs of the two main MP's and one MEP involved in Brexit the day after they knew they had pulled off the greatest victory of their political careers.

Admittedly one was at a press conference, but anyone who knows anything about Boris Johnson, will know this is far removed from his normal demeanor, serious press conference or not. I think they have both worked out what David Cameron's resignation, meaning they now have fully responsibility for implementing article 50, really means for them.

In my opinion it shows us without doubt, why you don't have to wait 10 years for your answer.

A picture paints a thousand words.

 

[Jeff Young]

So decision made, we respect that, UK out of the EU. Now let's take a hard look at the numbers and see what this really means without references to Marxism, etc (the idea that economic open markets, free trade, open borders and an elected contnent wide parliament is Marxism is pretty laughable really):

1. OECD says that leaving the EU will likely cost the UK about 5% of its GDP growth through 2030.
2. 1.2 million Brits in the EU work there without visas. Many of those jobs lost.
3. The 350 million lbs a week the Leave crowd was touting was always a lie. The real number is something like 150 million and in return, the UK got higher growth levels, etc.
4. Something like 70% of the under 30 crowd voted to say. 55% of the under 50 crowd. Old, white, rural voted to leave. Young folks got stuck with a generational decision by an older crowd that won't be there to suffer the impact.
5. This is likely to lead to a potential exit of NI and Scotland from the UK. That's 30% of the UK's land mass, the North Sea oil, and 10% of its population. Economic balkanization like that, never good.
6. Rural areas that voted heavily to leave were, typically of course, the ones receiving the omst benefit from the EU.
7. The leaders of Leave are now acknowledging there really isn't much they can do with immigration.

On the other side, we have what? Flag waving? National sovereignity? National idenitity?

Ok on sovereignity. I get some of that. That said, I spent a lot of time reading this weekend on what the EU can and can't do. Brits have opted out of social regs. So, it's basically product liability, product regulation, financial/security regulation and anti-trust. That's it. Taht's tyranny? Really guys?

 

[Mike]

I think the whole Brexit topic has been beat to death. Can we shift gears and discuss another political hot button issue? Gay Pride... who's for it?

 

[Doug S.]

Well, obviously the LGBT crowd is...the rest of us, I'm not sure.

I know that my opinion was changed by my daughter, who may well be wise beyond her years. We were discussing same-gender romantic issues and she said " Well, dad, the heart doesn't get to choose who it loves." I never thought of it that way.

All I know is that I am not interested in the "lifestyle" (for lack of a better term).

Others' opinions may vary!!

Cheers!

Doug

 

[Scott Calabro]

Thought this was interesting....

New EU 'superstate plan

 

[Randy V]

Thought this was interesting....

New EU 'superstate plan

Sounds like one of the reasons Britain wanted out!

 

[Steve]

What an impressively slippery slope that seems to getting a lot steeper. The EU trading block of the 70's evolving into a "superstate" where unelected bureaucrats control the flow of money, the borders, and the military. The ultimate power grab!

But of course, it'll all be for your own good.....