Best practices for keeping heat in header pipes?

What are the best practices to keep exhaust heat from escaping header pipes into engine room and thus not negatively affecting all the heat sensitive things in the vicinity of the header pipes?

I'm asking this question in the context of my Miura project but I know it has to be an issue/challenge for all mid-engine cars, some likely more than others, especially those with a V engine and 2 sets of headers.

I'm familiar with heat shields and have built/used them in other cars, e.g. my Cobra where header runs close to foot box. My primary challenge with the transverse mid-engined Miura is that the headers are so close to things like the starter, oil pan and transaxle (out of necessity due to very little space) that there's no room for the needed air gap of a heat shield to effectively work. In this situation, the heat control really needs to keep the heat from escaping from within the header tubes to be effective.

The headers are made of 304 stainless steel and are clean inside and out as there hasn't been any exhaust through them yet. I wiped the insides down with rubbing alcohol when fabricating them to remove oils prior to welding. I'm hoping to do an engine startup in the not too distant future and so now is the time to give it my best shot.

My initial plan was to ceramic coat them inside and out for heat control. In the interim, and after using CeraKote on my Cobra headers, it's clear to me that you can only realistically achieve about .001 inch thick coating using this product without it having "solvent popping" issues. "Solvent pop" occurs about 2 hours after the ceramic coating is sprayed on and is in essence a bubbling or blistering of the material where it has been applied too thick. How much heat control can be achieved with a .001 thick coating (.002 if used inside and out)? Yes, I contacted CeraKote technical support and they repeatedly told me the product cannot be applied greater than .001 thick or solvent pop will likely occur.

So my question out to those with experience in exhaust header heat control is what have you found to work best?
 

Mark H.

Supporter
That wrap does looks cool! Wonder about longevity on the header itself? I have seen many wrapped headers disintegrate and rust out over time when moisture cannot readily escape from between the header and wrap. Never had a ceramic header coating flake off, even when peening for clearance reasons. Might be worth a try, better mouse trap.
 

Joel K

Supporter
At some point I tried to find some real evidence that JetHot coating really reduces heat and I could only find things that looked and read as though they were advertising by the vendor and not independent information.

One guy who built an LT5 Ultima on YouTube used Cerakote and wound up wrapping the entire exhaust due to the heat.

Another source for thickly applied Ceramic coating that I’ve heard good things about is https://swaintech.com/
 
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Joel K

Supporter
Joel, how pricey is pricey ?? How big were your pipes ?

Regards Brian
I asked to quote these downpipes and they were $292 each. They have some other pricing examples in their web site.

A guy who had his Ultima exhaust done who has a YouTube channel seemed very happy with the results. He had the whole exhaust covered.

Not sure if that included return shipping. Probably not.

IMG_0343.jpeg
 
At some point I tried to find some real evidence that JetHot coating really reduces heat and I could only find things that looked and read as though they were advertising by the vendor and not independent information.

One guy who built an LT5 Ultima on YouTube used Cerakote and wound up wrapping the entire exhaust due to the heat.

Another source for thickly applied Ceramic coating that I’ve heard good things about is https://swaintech.com/

I have quite a bit of experience with the various mainstream ceramic coating products: Jet Hot, CeraKote, and Swaintech. While these are better than nothing and make the exhaust look better, I can't say they dramatically reduce the radiant heat exiting the exhaust. The main benefit I've seen is keeping mild steel headers protected from rusting over long periods of time. So Joel K, I second your observation that there's little hard evidence behind the heat retention properties of ceramic coating products.

The JetHot on my Cobra headers lasted 20 years before I recoated it due to oil stain discolorations and still no rust. I fabricated a set of heat shields around the foot boxes because the coated headers still radiated too much heat towards the fiberglass surface. I have Swaintech White Lighting on a supercharged LS in a different car and it seems to provide the best heat retention of the ceramic coat products I've used but there is still a lot of heat coming off the headers. The headers are stainless steel (so didn't coat them for rust protection) and coating has held up well but it hasn't met my expectations for heat retention. I started this thread in hopes of finding something better for the Miura because quite frankly I'm very worried ceramic coating won't be enough given the almost non-existence of space between headers and other parts.

Thanks guys, for the information on alternatives to ceramic coatings provided so far. Keep it coming :)
 
The only problem with Swaintech is their exhaust coatings come in white. I have used their other coatings in the past with great success.

You can paint over White Lighting with rattle can high heat coatings if you want a different color. I didn't change the white color on mine but did "freshen them up" with some VHT rattle can spray to cover up oil stains and finger prints. None of this made the heat retention any better but the headers do look like brand new again.
 

Neil

Supporter
One of the recommendations heard often is to wrap the headers with fiberglass tape. My experience is that it greatly accelerates rusting.
 
One of the recommendations heard often is to wrap the headers with fiberglass tape. My experience is that it greatly accelerates rusting.

In the case of my Miura, I'm not worried about rust as all the exhaust components are 304 SS. On my Ferrari 250 GTO recreation (supercharged LS), I have wrapped the entire exhaust system from head pipes back (headers and head pipes coated with White Lighting) with DEI header wrap. I wrapped the exhaust as the in-car temperatures were too hot and the application of header wrap helped a whole bunch.

My main worry for exhaust with external wrapping is the potential for metal fatigue and breakdown over time. I too have heard anecdotal stories of this happening to wrapped headers due to the capture of moisture. The only first hand story (from someone I trust) is about a vintage race car where the exhaust pipe "drooped" after having header wrap applied. He said the header wrap did it's job of containing the radiant heat but the side effect was the higher temperature within the pipe cause metal precipitation and softening to where the pipe dislocated downward by several inches. I've only had the wrapped exhaust on my GTO for about a year now with no signs of negative side effects but it's a street car with well supported exhaust system so I wouldn't expect to see issues this soon anyway.

Is perhaps ceramic coating the interior of exhaust components along wrapping or applying insulation (e.g. HeaderShield mentioned above) to the exterior a good way to stop radiant heat without experiencing metal fatigue/failure in 304SS exhaust system? Has someone tried this with good results?
 

Neil

Supporter
I think we are tackling two questions here. One, how to keep the heat within the headers and Two, how to reduce the radiant heat from the headers. While both are somewhat related, the radiant heat problem seems more of a concern. The heat from a red-hot exhaust header tube can scorch paint, melt plastic, cause uncomfortable temperatures in the cockpit, or even set fire to fiberglass resin and wire insulation. The most effective way to minimize the radiant heat problem is to fabricate a metal shield. This shields the emitted infrared from radiating to susceptible components. One method is shown in this photo of a SBC.
20240224_152851.jpg
 

Ian Anderson

Lifetime Supporter
Surely the best way to reduce header temps is to have the exhaust gasses exit more quickly.

So if you have 1.75 inch headers reduce to 1.5 inch so the gas speed is increased so less time for heat to soak through the exhaust material.

I am sure a mathematician could work out the length of time a cylinder’s worth of hot gas remains in the exhaust pipe for different exhaust diameters……my logic says the smaller diameter the better

Oh and I believe the MK1 GT40’s in their day ran 1.5 inch headers

Ian
 

Neil

Supporter
Surely the best way to reduce header temps is to have the exhaust gasses exit more quickly.

So if you have 1.75 inch headers reduce to 1.5 inch so the gas speed is increased so less time for heat to soak through the exhaust material.

I am sure a mathematician could work out the length of time a cylinder’s worth of hot gas remains in the exhaust pipe for different exhaust diameters……my logic says the smaller diameter the better

Oh and I believe the MK1 GT40’s in their day ran 1.5 inch headers

Ian
Reduce the diameter to zero and you'll have no heat at all.
:rolleyes:
 
I think we are tackling two questions here. One, how to keep the heat within the headers and Two, how to reduce the radiant heat from the headers. While both are somewhat related, the radiant heat problem seems more of a concern. The heat from a red-hot exhaust header tube can scorch paint, melt plastic, cause uncomfortable temperatures in the cockpit, or even set fire to fiberglass resin and wire insulation. The most effective way to minimize the radiant heat problem is to fabricate a metal shield. This shields the emitted infrared from radiating to susceptible components. One method is shown in this photo of a SBC. View attachment 141290


My logic for wanting to keep the heat from escaping the pipe is that if the heat can't get out then it won't radiate to other things around it. Yes, I plan to use heat shields where there is space for them to be mounted with an air gap so the shield can be effective. Here's some pics showing areas where I think it's too tight for a heat shield to be used.

P1170727.JPG


About 3/8" gap between header and shifter housing on transaxle. Yes, this is a transverse mounted engine so the transaxle is parallel to the engine near bottom of the V.

P1170731.JPG

Header passes within about 1/2" from oil pan.

P1170733.JPG


Starter solenoid within 1/2" of header.

P1170734.JPG


On the other side of header from the starter, coolant pipes/hoses are 3/4" from header.

As you can see, the headers are already built (so utilizing smaller tubes isn't an option) and the header tubes were sized by professionals at Burns Stainless to maximize exhaust flow. Hopefully these examples show why I'm looking for the best options to keep the heat within the pipes.
 

Neil

Supporter
My logic for wanting to keep the heat from escaping the pipe is that if the heat can't get out then it won't radiate to other things around it. Yes, I plan to use heat shields where there is space for them to be mounted with an air gap so the shield can be effective. Here's some pics showing areas where I think it's too tight for a heat shield to be used.

View attachment 141337

About 3/8" gap between header and shifter housing on transaxle. Yes, this is a transverse mounted engine so the transaxle is parallel to the engine near bottom of the V.

View attachment 141338
Header passes within about 1/2" from oil pan.

View attachment 141340

Starter solenoid within 1/2" of header.

View attachment 141341

On the other side of header from the starter, coolant pipes/hoses are 3/4" from header.

As you can see, the headers are already built (so utilizing smaller tubes isn't an option) and the header tubes were sized by professionals at Burns Stainless to maximize exhaust flow. Hopefully these examples show why I'm looking for the best options to keep the heat within the pipes.
That is certainly a difficult problem with such close spacing. I used some material to cover the rear firewall of my race car that might work for you. It is a high- temperature woven ceramic fabric with an aluminum foil coating bonded to it. If you install it with the metal side toward the headers, even if the fabric side touches a critical component, the heat transfer will be much reduced because of the low thermal conductivity of the fabric.

Ceramic Fiber Burn Test.jpg
Ceramic Fiber 1.jpg
IMG_20150720_142540557.jpg
IMG_20150720_142551710.jpg
 
Joel, that starter solenoid will be problematic no matter what you coat the pipes with IMO. Your best bet there I think is to try to source another starter with the solenoid clocked closer to the block. No idea if one exists, but I’d start looking into it.
 
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